Just switched to an 8speed Auto, feel like I need training
Discussion
So I’m a manual head.
My wife has a 2010 xc60 with horrid slushbox auto.
My weekend cars are both manual Alfa’s, that love to be driven up n down the gears (1989 Alfa 75 V6, 1971 Alfa GT1300Junior)
I’ve just been given for a company car (not really my choice), an F31 BMW 320d Msport Auto.
It’s an 8 speed with flappy paddles.
Prior to this I’ve had C220d manuals for 10 years.
Now I’m old school, and used to using the gears to enable engine braking, to help slow the car, and generally drive using engine braking as a core part of daily driving.
This new car has very little engine braking ability, even when I put it down two gears. I hate relying on just the brakes to slow and drive a car.
But this new car, makes me feel like I need some further driver training to get used to this type of car. Had it 3 months. Now I know a BMW is meant to be a better driver based car than the Merc. But comparing an 8 speed auto 320d with a C220d 6spd manual....... I had more fun and smoother driving in the manual.
Any classes out there for getting around this change ?
My wife has a 2010 xc60 with horrid slushbox auto.
My weekend cars are both manual Alfa’s, that love to be driven up n down the gears (1989 Alfa 75 V6, 1971 Alfa GT1300Junior)
I’ve just been given for a company car (not really my choice), an F31 BMW 320d Msport Auto.
It’s an 8 speed with flappy paddles.
Prior to this I’ve had C220d manuals for 10 years.
Now I’m old school, and used to using the gears to enable engine braking, to help slow the car, and generally drive using engine braking as a core part of daily driving.
This new car has very little engine braking ability, even when I put it down two gears. I hate relying on just the brakes to slow and drive a car.
But this new car, makes me feel like I need some further driver training to get used to this type of car. Had it 3 months. Now I know a BMW is meant to be a better driver based car than the Merc. But comparing an 8 speed auto 320d with a C220d 6spd manual....... I had more fun and smoother driving in the manual.
Any classes out there for getting around this change ?
Edited by jamieandthemagic on Sunday 16th December 19:07
Edited by jamieandthemagic on Sunday 16th December 19:09
Edited by jamieandthemagic on Sunday 16th December 19:15
OverSteery said:
who will probably tell you that brakes are for slowing down, not gears....
Was going to say this 
As enjoyable as it is to perfectly rev-match all the way down the box to bring the speed down on off-slips and the like, it isn't system, and any advanced trainer would punish you with many tuts - Brakes to slow, gears to go; Speed should be brought down to appropriate using the brakes before gear selection etc.
I’m in a similar position, I have had very high level ‘advanced’ training in the past, including with some autos but have pretty much exclusively driven manuals since. I have fairly recently gone to an auto m240i and really don’t feel as proficient driving it as I did with manuals. Main issue for me is too many gear choices so that gear selection (in manual mode) isn’t as intuitive, and no proper means of block changing which the ‘brakes to slow’ practice generally requires. Even in manual mode the auto box will obviously change itself down when braking, which means that you don’t then ‘select’ a gear to accelerate, or if you do it’s far less intuitive!
Upshot is that: a) I generally leave it in auto and b) I should have hung out for a manual!
Upshot is that: a) I generally leave it in auto and b) I should have hung out for a manual!
OverSteery said:
akirk said:
go and buy half a day from one of the advanced trainers out there...
simple but valuable investment
who will probably tell you that brakes are for slowing down, not gears....simple but valuable investment
but - they will do so in a way which helps him to understand how to do it - looking at pace along the road / hazards / points at which to brake / gears / speeds / etc.
The latest automatics with 'coast' mode can be quite hard work. Your normal acceleration sense on the motorway needs recalibrating as the car just keeps ploughing on. My wife's V90 feels like a container ship as you realise you're going to have to disappoint yourself and tap the brake pedal, after all. Don't even get me started on the manual mode where you push forward to go up a gear and backward to go down. Just wrong!
I'm not sure what you expect further training to teach you? You already know the system of car control (I presume) and you've worked out the behaviour of your auto box.
Isn't the rest is just practice.
I don't think you'll find training that makes your ZF8 behave like a 6-speed manual any more than you'll find a class that makes your 320d feel like an M3. Adopt and adapt. Lift sooner if that's your style, and if you can't then use the brakes. It's no different to something like a supercharged petrol car which run on more than a N/A when you lift off. You just have to adapt.
I can't really think what the magic wisdom might be that you're seeking from an instructor.
Don't exclude the possibility that you've bought the wrong car and that no auto will meet your needs or expectations.
I love the ZF8 and I think it's an engineering masterpiece, but I don't expect it to replace a manual box for ultimate control or fun.
Isn't the rest is just practice.
I don't think you'll find training that makes your ZF8 behave like a 6-speed manual any more than you'll find a class that makes your 320d feel like an M3. Adopt and adapt. Lift sooner if that's your style, and if you can't then use the brakes. It's no different to something like a supercharged petrol car which run on more than a N/A when you lift off. You just have to adapt.
I can't really think what the magic wisdom might be that you're seeking from an instructor.
Don't exclude the possibility that you've bought the wrong car and that no auto will meet your needs or expectations.
I love the ZF8 and I think it's an engineering masterpiece, but I don't expect it to replace a manual box for ultimate control or fun.
S93 said:
If you like to pootle along, stick it in eco pro mode. You'll feel the engine breaking a bit more, but gear changes will be a more sluggish and throttle response will be limited due to the nature of eco pro mode.
No. You get less engine braking in eco pro mode, which may well include the coasting function referred to above (sometimes called gliding or sailing, in a Merc you get a little picture of a sailing boat). This mode is like pressing the clutch on a manual. The engine is disconnected from the wheels when you lift off the accelerator and the revs drop to idle. With a conventional transmission zero fuel is used when you lift off, and with this system some fuel is needed to keep the engine idling. However the elimination of engine braking makes coasting more economical so long as you take advantage by lifting earlier and don't end up using the brakes more. I don't use Eco mode, preferring the slightly higher change up points you get in Comfort.Haltamer said:
OverSteery said:
who will probably tell you that brakes are for slowing down, not gears....
Was going to say this As enjoyable as it is to perfectly rev-match all the way down the box to bring the speed down on off-slips and the like, it isn't system, and any advanced trainer would punish you with many tuts - Brakes to slow, gears to go; Speed should be brought down to appropriate using the brakes before gear selection etc.
Haltamer said:
OverSteery said:
who will probably tell you that brakes are for slowing down, not gears....
Was going to say this As enjoyable as it is to perfectly rev-match all the way down the box to bring the speed down on off-slips and the like, it isn't system, and any advanced trainer would punish you with many tuts - Brakes to slow, gears to go; Speed should be brought down to appropriate using the brakes before gear selection etc.
OP > just let the car handle shuffling the gears and use the brakes to slow down.
waremark said:
S93 said:
If you like to pootle along, stick it in eco pro mode. You'll feel the engine braking a bit more, but gear changes will be a more sluggish and throttle response will be limited due to the nature of eco pro mode.
No. You get less engine braking in eco pro mode, which may well include the coasting function referred to above (sometimes called gliding or sailing, in a Merc you get a little picture of a sailing boat). This mode is like pressing the clutch on a manual. The engine is disconnected from the wheels when you lift off the accelerator and the revs drop to idle. With a conventional transmission zero fuel is used when you lift off, and with this system some fuel is needed to keep the engine idling. However the elimination of engine braking makes coasting more economical so long as you take advantage by lifting earlier and don't end up using the brakes more. I don't use Eco mode, preferring the slightly higher change up points you get in Comfort.In the Golf, this only happens if you're completely off the pedals - a touch on either brake or accelerator re-engages the clutch bringing engine braking into play (although it is fairly mild compared with a manual). A major part of the drive for economy is reducing frictional losses within the engine and drivetrain and with official training not advocating engine braking to slow there's no point in wasting momentum or fuel by having an engine create drag when you're not actively asking for power or braking.
Edited by Funk on Wednesday 19th December 13:31
300bhp/ton said:
Funk said:
Yep; brakes are far cheaper to replace when they wear than a clutch and/or gearbox!
Has any gearbox ever worn out due to engine braking? Not sure any clutch will have either.Funk said:
I can't even be bothered to debate that logic with you. It should be pretty obvious to anyone with half a brain that using *something* to slow another *thing* will cause wear on those two things. Whether you choose to wear the clutch/gearbox/engine or a cheap set of discs and pads is, of course, entirely up to you.
Why the rolleyes? Clearly you have not thought about this. The slowing friction of engine braking is not friction in the gearbox, that is just cogs turning round and round. And will cause no more wear than accelerating. It is the engine that is providing the braking force, by essentially turning itself into an air pump. jamieandthemagic said:
But this new car, makes me feel like I need some further driver training to get used to this type of car. Had it 3 months. Now I know a BMW is meant to be a better driver based car than the Merc. But comparing an 8 speed auto 320d with a C220d 6spd manual....... I had more fun and smoother driving in the manual.
Any classes out there for getting around this change ?
TBH the best training will be a mindset change. You just need to accept that the BMW cannot be driven like your other cars and you will never be able to replicate this. Just the same as driving a fwd car will have different driving dynamics to a rwd one. No amount of "training" will change how the things physically work.Any classes out there for getting around this change ?
Funk said:
I can't even be bothered to debate that logic with you. It should be pretty obvious to anyone with half a brain that using *something* to slow another *thing* will cause wear on those two things. Whether you choose to wear the clutch/gearbox/engine or a cheap set of discs and pads is, of course, entirely up to you.
I drive by 'System ' using brakes to slow but I'm not convinced it is economical. People who change down through the gears to slow most often do so without matching engine revs to road speed and so cause clutch wear. However clutches nowadays seem to go on forever; I gather that even learner cars get to six figure mileages on the original clutch. Brake disks and pads on the other hand are an expensive consumable.Gassing Station | Advanced Driving | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff