Multiple cars overtaking a slower moving car
Discussion
Hello PistonHeads!
I would like to hear opinion on a situation that I see quite often in regular driving on A and B roads, and it looks like this!
Who is right in this case?
Is F1 right to pull out if F2 has initiated the overtake, despite F1 having indicated their intentions for a couple of seconds prior?
Should F2 have waited until F1 has completed their overtake before pulling out?
Is what F2 did fair game?
Cheers
I would like to hear opinion on a situation that I see quite often in regular driving on A and B roads, and it looks like this!
There is a slower moving car traveling somewhere between 10 and 15MPH below the NSL and a queue of 2-3 cars will start to form behind it. Let's call the slow moving car S, and the faster moving cars F1 and F2. There is solid whites so overtaking is not permitted for the next 50m until those solid whites change to dashed lines. Let's suppose F1 is a Citroen C1 and car F2 is a 320D, so F2 is quite a lot faster than F1.
------------------------------------------------------------
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -======================
S F1 F2
------------------------------------------------------------
The slow car S and F1 are now on solid whites. F1 indicates right to overtake. However, F2 doesn't want to be stuck behind F1 and risk not being able to complete the overtake so pulls out just before F1.
------------------------------------------------------------
F2
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -======================
S F1
------------------------------------------------------------
As F2 pulls out F1 decides to pull out (recall that F1 has been indicating their intention to overtake for a couple seconds now):
------------------------------------------------------------
F1F2
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -======================
S
------------------------------------------------------------
F2 is now held up behind F1 which cannot accelerate past S at the same rate as F2. In practice, from what I see during driving, F2 either tailgates F1 until the overtake is complete or if F2 is a nice driver instead drops back to following S and waits for the next chance to overtake.
Who is right in this case?
Is F1 right to pull out if F2 has initiated the overtake, despite F1 having indicated their intentions for a couple of seconds prior?
Should F2 have waited until F1 has completed their overtake before pulling out?
Is what F2 did fair game?
Cheers
I know it's very frustrating to be 2 or 3 cars back and prepared to overtake as soon as the opportunity is there, but as far as I'm concerned, you have to wait a second or two to give the first car(s) in the 'queue' their chance.
Nothing to do with what's right or wrong or who's got priority, but all about safety.
If the front car is going slowly and there is a good opportunity to pass, chances are that the car in front of you will try to pass once he's got his act together. Are you prepared for him to pull out in front of you at the last moment, or even into the side of you? There are a lot of people who were 'in the right' in graveyards all around the world.
Nothing to do with what's right or wrong or who's got priority, but all about safety.
If the front car is going slowly and there is a good opportunity to pass, chances are that the car in front of you will try to pass once he's got his act together. Are you prepared for him to pull out in front of you at the last moment, or even into the side of you? There are a lot of people who were 'in the right' in graveyards all around the world.
Edited by Vanordinaire on Wednesday 14th November 11:55
Vanordinaire said:
I know it's very frustrating to be 2 or 3 cars back and prepared to overtake as soon as the opportunity is there, but as far as I'm concerned, you have to wait a second or two to give the first car(s) in the 'queue' their chance. Nothing to do with what's right or wrong or who's got priority, but all about safety
Spot on. If I am F2 I wait just a little to see if F1 will move, and if not, off I go.
If I am F1 I indicate just a little more prematurely than I normally would if I think F2 is going to go. Or, alternatively, if F1 looks a bit more capable of overtaking than me, then I let them get on with it if they are getting lined up to go.
What annoys me as F2 at times is the F1s that appear to only start overtaking because I have. Often I am convinced there's a "well if he's overtaking then so am I" mentality.
Can't admit to being in any way an expert but isn't this to do with who is established? In other words if you were at the back of the queue, signalled pulled out and are established in the right hand lane then someone pulling into your lane in front of you would be in the wrong. Just like if you were in lane 2 of a dual carriage way and a car in lane 1 decided to pull out in front of you.
In reality I'd be hanging back and giving the other cars in the queue chance to start their overtake.
A few weeks ago I was driving home in my Exige and there were two wagons between which was sandwiched a BMW 650i. Everytime an overtake chance presented itself (enough for me to get past both wagons and the BMW) I was too worried to take it is i was anticipating the BMW to start his overtake as I appeared round the first wagon. I therefore drove for miles behind this little convoy thinking, he's bound to overtake this time.....
In reality I'd be hanging back and giving the other cars in the queue chance to start their overtake.
A few weeks ago I was driving home in my Exige and there were two wagons between which was sandwiched a BMW 650i. Everytime an overtake chance presented itself (enough for me to get past both wagons and the BMW) I was too worried to take it is i was anticipating the BMW to start his overtake as I appeared round the first wagon. I therefore drove for miles behind this little convoy thinking, he's bound to overtake this time.....
I had very similar to this, this summer...
road over the top between Stow-on-the-Wold and Burford (wide open views / fast road)
I was in the M5 - behind a Porsche 911 who as I came up to him on the Fosse Way decided he would do some interesting driving to avoid my getting past him (so I was being very cautious)... behind a pickup and a little fiesta van
as we approached the long straight - I moved right for a view and to show that I was planning an overtake (but didn't move forward)
the 911 moved right and started to accelerate hard - and 'just in time' the fiesta van moved out - no signalling, and 911 nearly hit it...
I was still sat back watching, and could see that I would now have no time to get past, so moved back left - the 911 though (same place as your 320D above) was determined to get past at any cost, so the minute the fiesta van moved left, he accelerated to pass both - nearly hitting an oncoming car (despite that having been visible for a little while at that point)...
what should have happened - simple, the 911 should have done the same that I did - an overtake is based on move right - check it is clear then go - not move right and go. Had he done that he would have seen the fiesta van coming out / not nearly hit it / had time to return and overtake later / not nearly hit the oncoming car / etc. The 911 driver (or 320D in your case) needs to abort the overtake at that point, which is why you move out and do a final check for go / abort - and in both cases continuing the overtake is wrong... unless there is plenty of clear road...
I passed pickup / van / 911 a mile or so later
The whole discussion about how you overtake has been had on here previously - one of the reasons for a roadcraft overtake (move right first, then decide to go) rather than the banana shaped hop so many do is that it makes much clearer the overtaking car's intention (F2) and gives the overtakee (F1) an opportunity to decide to go at a point where F2 is not yet committed and can easily return to the left. If F2 then goes, the transition from wait and decide (while on the right) to go is much faster, so there is less time for F1 to interrupt... It just works much better...
It does sound though as F2 is a bit impatient and possibly moved out before the lines really finished, in order to get past before F1 had an opportunity...
road over the top between Stow-on-the-Wold and Burford (wide open views / fast road)
I was in the M5 - behind a Porsche 911 who as I came up to him on the Fosse Way decided he would do some interesting driving to avoid my getting past him (so I was being very cautious)... behind a pickup and a little fiesta van
as we approached the long straight - I moved right for a view and to show that I was planning an overtake (but didn't move forward)
the 911 moved right and started to accelerate hard - and 'just in time' the fiesta van moved out - no signalling, and 911 nearly hit it...
I was still sat back watching, and could see that I would now have no time to get past, so moved back left - the 911 though (same place as your 320D above) was determined to get past at any cost, so the minute the fiesta van moved left, he accelerated to pass both - nearly hitting an oncoming car (despite that having been visible for a little while at that point)...
what should have happened - simple, the 911 should have done the same that I did - an overtake is based on move right - check it is clear then go - not move right and go. Had he done that he would have seen the fiesta van coming out / not nearly hit it / had time to return and overtake later / not nearly hit the oncoming car / etc. The 911 driver (or 320D in your case) needs to abort the overtake at that point, which is why you move out and do a final check for go / abort - and in both cases continuing the overtake is wrong... unless there is plenty of clear road...
I passed pickup / van / 911 a mile or so later
The whole discussion about how you overtake has been had on here previously - one of the reasons for a roadcraft overtake (move right first, then decide to go) rather than the banana shaped hop so many do is that it makes much clearer the overtaking car's intention (F2) and gives the overtakee (F1) an opportunity to decide to go at a point where F2 is not yet committed and can easily return to the left. If F2 then goes, the transition from wait and decide (while on the right) to go is much faster, so there is less time for F1 to interrupt... It just works much better...
It does sound though as F2 is a bit impatient and possibly moved out before the lines really finished, in order to get past before F1 had an opportunity...
Edited by akirk on Wednesday 14th November 12:21
I was sort of F2 on Saturday.
Travelling down the A141 towards Chateris with a truck in front, a Smart tucked up too close behind the truck, then me a sensible distance behind.
The Smart (nominally F1) kept pulling right so she could see past the truck then dropping back left as there was oncoming traffic. We get to a suitable gap, the Smart pulls right has a look then pulls back left as previously. I decide that I can make both safely so indicate, pull out and accelerate. As I draw level with the Smart, some seconds later, she decides that actually, she will go after all and pulls out straight into my side (her indicators were apparently broken), and I have to take to the verge to avoid a Smart shaped hole in my doors. Luckily, the verge was solid and there were no drainage channels otherwise things would have gone very badly.
Travelling down the A141 towards Chateris with a truck in front, a Smart tucked up too close behind the truck, then me a sensible distance behind.
The Smart (nominally F1) kept pulling right so she could see past the truck then dropping back left as there was oncoming traffic. We get to a suitable gap, the Smart pulls right has a look then pulls back left as previously. I decide that I can make both safely so indicate, pull out and accelerate. As I draw level with the Smart, some seconds later, she decides that actually, she will go after all and pulls out straight into my side (her indicators were apparently broken), and I have to take to the verge to avoid a Smart shaped hole in my doors. Luckily, the verge was solid and there were no drainage channels otherwise things would have gone very badly.
MKnight702 said:
I was sort of F2 on Saturday.
Travelling down the A141 towards Chateris with a truck in front, a Smart tucked up too close behind the truck, then me a sensible distance behind.
The Smart (nominally F1) kept pulling right so she could see past the truck then dropping back left as there was oncoming traffic. We get to a suitable gap, the Smart pulls right has a look then pulls back left as previously. I decide that I can make both safely so indicate, pull out and accelerate. As I draw level with the Smart, some seconds later, she decides that actually, she will go after all and pulls out straight into my side (her indicators were apparently broken), and I have to take to the verge to avoid a Smart shaped hole in my doors. Luckily, the verge was solid and there were no drainage channels otherwise things would have gone very badly.
I think that if I had watched the Smart moving in and out that much / that erratically I would have been very cautious about overtaking - may well have sounded the horn first, and my whole priority in terms of focus would have been on the Smart to detect any sign of moving... the driver has given really clear signs of intending to go - and it is not unusual to come out, think and then take 2...Travelling down the A141 towards Chateris with a truck in front, a Smart tucked up too close behind the truck, then me a sensible distance behind.
The Smart (nominally F1) kept pulling right so she could see past the truck then dropping back left as there was oncoming traffic. We get to a suitable gap, the Smart pulls right has a look then pulls back left as previously. I decide that I can make both safely so indicate, pull out and accelerate. As I draw level with the Smart, some seconds later, she decides that actually, she will go after all and pulls out straight into my side (her indicators were apparently broken), and I have to take to the verge to avoid a Smart shaped hole in my doors. Luckily, the verge was solid and there were no drainage channels otherwise things would have gone very badly.
InitialDave said:
F2's being a dick. F1 clearly intends to make the overtake, and should be allowed to.
Really? If F1 intends to make the overtake, why not indicate? I see this a lot on my commute, and almost always, F1 just sits behind the slower vehicle for mile after mile. Overtaking is extremely rare these days.RobM77 said:
InitialDave said:
F2's being a dick. F1 clearly intends to make the overtake, and should be allowed to.
Really? If F1 intends to make the overtake, why not indicate? I see this a lot on my commute, and almost always, F1 just sits behind the slower vehicle for mile after mile. Overtaking is extremely rare these days.RobM77 said:
Overtaking is extremely rare these days.
That's very true, you also make a judgement (for good or ill) based on the car. If I'm behind a wagon and an Impreza or M BMW of some description is in front of me then I'm expecting them to go for the overtake as soon as the opportunity arises. If its an Aygo with an OAP driving then I'm not expecting an overtake. It's still the job of the F1 car to check for cars already established in the lane they are moving into though, imo
Toltec said:
RobM77 said:
InitialDave said:
F2's being a dick. F1 clearly intends to make the overtake, and should be allowed to.
Really? If F1 intends to make the overtake, why not indicate? I see this a lot on my commute, and almost always, F1 just sits behind the slower vehicle for mile after mile. Overtaking is extremely rare these days.They're being a dick.
InitialDave said:
Toltec said:
RobM77 said:
InitialDave said:
F2's being a dick. F1 clearly intends to make the overtake, and should be allowed to.
Really? If F1 intends to make the overtake, why not indicate? I see this a lot on my commute, and almost always, F1 just sits behind the slower vehicle for mile after mile. Overtaking is extremely rare these days.They're being a dick.
That's an insanely dangerous thing to do.Edited by RobM77 on Thursday 15th November 16:26
RobM77 said:
Gosh - I've just re-read it. Sorry, I would never have assumed such a dangerous situation - F2 goes to overtake a car that's already indicating?! That's an insanely dangerous thing to do.
Actually yes, I missed that too. Of course you wouldn't overtake a car indicating right. That's an insanely dangerous thing to do.F2 needs to calm down and wait his turn. The impatience isnt worth what could happen.
I've had an accident before in similar circumstances however i would have been F3 and there was no indicating from anyone other than me and F2.
F1 was a modified Renaultsport Megane, F2 was a family diesel Vectra. S was doing 30-35mph on a NSL road that was clear for about a mile.
F1 was massively hesitant, F2 was patient then indicated and overtook F1 and S. I thought by this point F1 would certainly go, i gave him plenty of time then indicated to pull out and gave him another couple of seconds just in case before i went for it too. As i got along side he swerved out into me with no prior indication, pushed through then swerved back in and hit the front wing of S too.
It'll change the way i overtake forever, luckily no injuries but it could have been a lot worse.
Scott
I've had an accident before in similar circumstances however i would have been F3 and there was no indicating from anyone other than me and F2.
F1 was a modified Renaultsport Megane, F2 was a family diesel Vectra. S was doing 30-35mph on a NSL road that was clear for about a mile.
F1 was massively hesitant, F2 was patient then indicated and overtook F1 and S. I thought by this point F1 would certainly go, i gave him plenty of time then indicated to pull out and gave him another couple of seconds just in case before i went for it too. As i got along side he swerved out into me with no prior indication, pushed through then swerved back in and hit the front wing of S too.
It'll change the way i overtake forever, luckily no injuries but it could have been a lot worse.
Scott
scottos said:
F2 needs to calm down and wait his turn. The impatience isnt worth what could happen.
I've had an accident before in similar circumstances however i would have been F3 and there was no indicating from anyone other than me and F2.
F1 was a modified Renaultsport Megane, F2 was a family diesel Vectra. S was doing 30-35mph on a NSL road that was clear for about a mile.
F1 was massively hesitant, F2 was patient then indicated and overtook F1 and S. I thought by this point F1 would certainly go, i gave him plenty of time then indicated to pull out and gave him another couple of seconds just in case before i went for it too. As i got along side he swerved out into me with no prior indication, pushed through then swerved back in and hit the front wing of S too.
It'll change the way i overtake forever, luckily no injuries but it could have been a lot worse.
Scott
i can sympathise.I've had an accident before in similar circumstances however i would have been F3 and there was no indicating from anyone other than me and F2.
F1 was a modified Renaultsport Megane, F2 was a family diesel Vectra. S was doing 30-35mph on a NSL road that was clear for about a mile.
F1 was massively hesitant, F2 was patient then indicated and overtook F1 and S. I thought by this point F1 would certainly go, i gave him plenty of time then indicated to pull out and gave him another couple of seconds just in case before i went for it too. As i got along side he swerved out into me with no prior indication, pushed through then swerved back in and hit the front wing of S too.
It'll change the way i overtake forever, luckily no injuries but it could have been a lot worse.
Scott
some say, and i think it may be in roadcraft?, that you can always flash when behind to ensure those in front know you're there.
not sure many would appreciate that signal as polite in 2018 though.
vsonix said:
Vanordinaire said:
There are a lot of people who were 'in the right' in graveyards all around the world.
^ thisAlways be prepared for other people's unpredictability and failure to perform basic shoulder check and other safety routines.
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