Driving courses for 14 y.o.
Discussion
Suggestions needed...
My 14 yo daughter has done few young drivers experiences (Mercedes World) and carting days. Now she is keen to get some structured learning/ practice experience (next spring or summer).
She is not planning to do racing or track days (yet... although looking forward to when she would be able to join me), but typical driving experience is not good enough. She is after something where she can learn over the course of few weeks, take it slowly and actually learn something rather than get a taster.
Based on SW London, so South, SW is better, but anywhere within 1.5 hrs or so of London would be feasible (was thinking about MSV at Bedfrord or Brands Hatch but it seems to be similar to other "taster" experiences)
Would greatly appreciate any suggestions.
My 14 yo daughter has done few young drivers experiences (Mercedes World) and carting days. Now she is keen to get some structured learning/ practice experience (next spring or summer).
She is not planning to do racing or track days (yet... although looking forward to when she would be able to join me), but typical driving experience is not good enough. She is after something where she can learn over the course of few weeks, take it slowly and actually learn something rather than get a taster.
Based on SW London, so South, SW is better, but anywhere within 1.5 hrs or so of London would be feasible (was thinking about MSV at Bedfrord or Brands Hatch but it seems to be similar to other "taster" experiences)
Would greatly appreciate any suggestions.
For a structured road-esque lesson there is the Cardrome in Elm Park (Near Romford) But that's probably a bit out of your way - They do a proper lesson despite age; Not a supermarket car park cone dodging exercise as delivered by many other young driving experience floggers.
Strongly recommend them - You could make a day out of it, as they allow you to take your own car "on track", So you could give your Daughter a go if you're trusting
Strongly recommend them - You could make a day out of it, as they allow you to take your own car "on track", So you could give your Daughter a go if you're trusting
My sister and I were both in the Under 17 car club when we were kids (1980's). It was great and I bet it still is. A proper "club" not just some commercial scheme and with a genuine interest in nurturing driving skills over many years. Richard Burns was a member at around the same time as me, went on to be a success in rallying, sadly died young of a brain tumour.
All can be good fun for young people, but rarely does it improve their driving ability on the road with regard to safety. Various research over many years has supported this. My experience over forty years or road user education indicates that only a very small minority of new drivers with pre-learner age experience have any advantage in terms of skill and safety.
Generally there is an element of over-confidence in their ability - often created by parental encouragement (usually father!). Added to this is a quite common attitude that makes the student believe that they have little more to learn. I could make a list of the pre-learner licence activities that have presented the 'worst cases' to me.
There can be some value in pre-learner 'training'. I took my daughter at fifteen and a half to an off road site to learn and practice manual transmission skills and steering/manouvring skills. She still required the mandatory 120 hours of observed driving as required in New South Wales, Australia.
Generally there is an element of over-confidence in their ability - often created by parental encouragement (usually father!). Added to this is a quite common attitude that makes the student believe that they have little more to learn. I could make a list of the pre-learner licence activities that have presented the 'worst cases' to me.
There can be some value in pre-learner 'training'. I took my daughter at fifteen and a half to an off road site to learn and practice manual transmission skills and steering/manouvring skills. She still required the mandatory 120 hours of observed driving as required in New South Wales, Australia.
Len Woodman said:
All can be good fun for young people, but rarely does it improve their driving ability on the road with regard to safety. Various research over many years has supported this. My experience over forty years or road user education indicates that only a very small minority of new drivers with pre-learner age experience have any advantage in terms of skill and safety.
Generally there is an element of over-confidence in their ability - often created by parental encouragement (usually father!). Added to this is a quite common attitude that makes the student believe that they have little more to learn. I could make a list of the pre-learner licence activities that have presented the 'worst cases' to me.
There can be some value in pre-learner 'training'. I took my daughter at fifteen and a half to an off road site to learn and practice manual transmission skills and steering/manouvring skills. She still required the mandatory 120 hours of observed driving as required in New South Wales, Australia.
Care to provide an actual data to support that? It's not supported by the data we have in the UK, quite the opposite, in fact, 3 x safer, & if involved in an incident, likely to be low speed, minimal damage & unlikely to involve injury. Welcome to view here http://u17ccctrust.org/research/Generally there is an element of over-confidence in their ability - often created by parental encouragement (usually father!). Added to this is a quite common attitude that makes the student believe that they have little more to learn. I could make a list of the pre-learner licence activities that have presented the 'worst cases' to me.
There can be some value in pre-learner 'training'. I took my daughter at fifteen and a half to an off road site to learn and practice manual transmission skills and steering/manouvring skills. She still required the mandatory 120 hours of observed driving as required in New South Wales, Australia.
MarkwG said:
Care to provide an actual data to support that? It's not supported by the data we have in the UK, quite the opposite, in fact, 3 x safer, & if involved in an incident, likely to be low speed, minimal damage & unlikely to involve injury. Welcome to view here http://u17ccctrust.org/research/
Can start with this - https://ac.els-cdn.com/S204604301630106X/1-s2.0-S2...I notice that your reference is from a party with an interest in under 17 driving.
I've done the u17cc thing with 2 of my 3 and although it's not statistically relevant, there is no way on earth that the pre-driving test training they had is not beneficial. To be driven by a 16 year old with full commentary and absolute adherence to UK AD standards is something to behold. And yes they are still kids whose hot heads still take over. But where most kids try and get their fast driving kicks on the main roads, these have done it on a race circuit. Combining "track skills" with AD observation and "the system" is super impressive.
It's quite a commitment in time from parent and child, but as an adult I learnt advanced driving as my kids learnt! Double benefit.
Bert
It's quite a commitment in time from parent and child, but as an adult I learnt advanced driving as my kids learnt! Double benefit.
Bert
But that still doesn't mean that they have any advantage over a well-instructed learner without pre-17 training when they go to test.
New drivers in NSW can get a Learner's Licence and start on road training at 16, taking the driver ability road test at 17 or very close after. They will have had a lot of on-road experience by that time (minimum requirement is 120 hours). Then follows three years on 'P' - (Provisional) plates. Commentary driving is included in the lesson plans of licenced instructors. This has been the case since 2000 for all new drivers. My daughter, just over a year ago commentated throughout her driving test - and passed! Those that 'learned to drive in paddocks' are no better by this stage.
In around 1980 I visited the Under-17's Car Club at Silverstone - Stirling Moss was there at the time. As it is an organised activity it is probably better than go-karting etc. as a contribution to road safety for new drivers.
I do believe that it's all good fun to do at any age.
New drivers in NSW can get a Learner's Licence and start on road training at 16, taking the driver ability road test at 17 or very close after. They will have had a lot of on-road experience by that time (minimum requirement is 120 hours). Then follows three years on 'P' - (Provisional) plates. Commentary driving is included in the lesson plans of licenced instructors. This has been the case since 2000 for all new drivers. My daughter, just over a year ago commentated throughout her driving test - and passed! Those that 'learned to drive in paddocks' are no better by this stage.
In around 1980 I visited the Under-17's Car Club at Silverstone - Stirling Moss was there at the time. As it is an organised activity it is probably better than go-karting etc. as a contribution to road safety for new drivers.
I do believe that it's all good fun to do at any age.
Len Woodman said:
But that still doesn't mean that they have any advantage over a well-instructed learner without pre-17 training when they go to test.
New drivers in NSW can get a Learner's Licence and start on road training at 16, taking the driver ability road test at 17 or very close after. They will have had a lot of on-road experience by that time (minimum requirement is 120 hours). Then follows three years on 'P' - (Provisional) plates. Commentary driving is included in the lesson plans of licenced instructors. This has been the case since 2000 for all new drivers. My daughter, just over a year ago commentated throughout her driving test - and passed! Those that 'learned to drive in paddocks' are no better by this stage.
In around 1980 I visited the Under-17's Car Club at Silverstone - Stirling Moss was there at the time. As it is an organised activity it is probably better than go-karting etc. as a contribution to road safety for new drivers.
I do believe that it's all good fun to do at any age.
Thank you for the link above, but I'm not sure whether it more supports your opinion or mine. It seems to be talking about a Graduated Driving Licence, which I'm not particularly a fan of. GDLS might or might not be achieving an improvement but in my opinion, it's already too late by then: here, mid to late teens is the worst possible time frame to learning a complex skill, & the busy roads in the UK are the worst place to do it.New drivers in NSW can get a Learner's Licence and start on road training at 16, taking the driver ability road test at 17 or very close after. They will have had a lot of on-road experience by that time (minimum requirement is 120 hours). Then follows three years on 'P' - (Provisional) plates. Commentary driving is included in the lesson plans of licenced instructors. This has been the case since 2000 for all new drivers. My daughter, just over a year ago commentated throughout her driving test - and passed! Those that 'learned to drive in paddocks' are no better by this stage.
In around 1980 I visited the Under-17's Car Club at Silverstone - Stirling Moss was there at the time. As it is an organised activity it is probably better than go-karting etc. as a contribution to road safety for new drivers.
I do believe that it's all good fun to do at any age.
What the OP originally asked about was structured learning practice at 14 years old. What the Under 17 Car Club offers, is learning core skills before they get into their teenage years, & therefore embedding good behaviours as early as possible: & that does seem to work. The majority of the research above seems to relate to Australia; but we're talking about the UK, where the pathway to a full licence is very different. In the UK, with only a couple of exceptions, driving starts at 17, not 16; there's no minimum experience requirement, no commentary, & no minimum time on a provisional before a full licence. There's also no skid control, basic first aid, worthwhile mechanical knowledge, or high speed awareness; indeed only in the last couple of years has motorway driving been available prior to a full licence being issued. All of the above & more are part of the Under 17 Car Club curriculum. I think you're trying to compare apples & footballs: there's very little similarity between what you're referencing in Australia & here.
To quote some of the report - "These are the factors which influence the young driver crash exposure. By considering these factors during the design of young driver training and licensing systems, risk of crash could be reduced." - these are all covered by the Under 17 Car Club: it's not "driving around a paddock", it's a methodology recognised by road safety organisations & police authorities - people who are not easily swayed without supporting evidence. I doubt very much that what you saw at Silverstone back in 1980 in any way refers to what happens today, the worlds a very different place.
It sounds like your daughters driving pathway wasn't that different to my sons; except, he covered over 10000 miles, & around 300 hours driving, all before he undertook his driving test. That gave him a level of competence was well beyond the minimum required here, & a much better attitude to driving safely. Since then, he's driven many more thousands of miles, on some of the most congested & busy roads in this part of the world. Hopefully his younger brother will do the same.
The link I provided is to a road safety charity, non-profit making, involved in young driver training - so the only axe to grind is the desire to improve road safety. With any data set there are bound to be flaws: it could reasonably be argued the people most likely to participate are those more risk averse & hence less likely to be at risk anyway, but that doesn't detract from the basic principle. My family have been involved since my eldest son was 11 - he's 21 now, & one of the best & safest road drivers I know; I'm hopeful his younger brother will follow suit.
I agree that attitudes to road safety are formed long before 17.
I would have liked my children to participate in the U17CC, but they just weren't available on enough summer weekends. However, as teenagers in the car they did have to put up with their father giving commentaries, and frequently discussing driving and other road safety issues. Also and separately they had the opportunity to learn the basics of controlling a manual car in a road like environment (including both hill starts and reasonable speeds) before being allowed on public roads at 17. I would say this was structured learning rather than play. They aĺl ended up with good attitudes to safety and good hazard awareness from the start of their driving careers. They also all passed first time and have had clean records over a good number of years since.
In spite of not having personal experience I would strongly recommend the U17CC. I would not expect early racing or unstructured under 17 practise to contribute to post license safety.
I would have liked my children to participate in the U17CC, but they just weren't available on enough summer weekends. However, as teenagers in the car they did have to put up with their father giving commentaries, and frequently discussing driving and other road safety issues. Also and separately they had the opportunity to learn the basics of controlling a manual car in a road like environment (including both hill starts and reasonable speeds) before being allowed on public roads at 17. I would say this was structured learning rather than play. They aĺl ended up with good attitudes to safety and good hazard awareness from the start of their driving careers. They also all passed first time and have had clean records over a good number of years since.
In spite of not having personal experience I would strongly recommend the U17CC. I would not expect early racing or unstructured under 17 practise to contribute to post license safety.
Len, have you not commented in the past on poor standards of driving where you are compared to the UK? If so, how do you reconcile that with the much more structured approach to learning down there?
I believe that our authorities have several times considered and rejected the introduction of graduated driver licensing. And Pass Plus post test training has fallen largely into disuse because the insurance companies found that it did not materially improve new driver claims performance.
I believe that our authorities have several times considered and rejected the introduction of graduated driver licensing. And Pass Plus post test training has fallen largely into disuse because the insurance companies found that it did not materially improve new driver claims performance.
waremark said:
Len, have you not commented in the past on poor standards of driving where you are compared to the UK? If so, how do you reconcile that with the much more structured approach to learning down there?
I believe that our authorities have several times considered and rejected the introduction of graduated driver licensing. And Pass Plus post test training has fallen largely into disuse because the insurance companies found that it did not materially improve new driver claims performance.
Yes in general the driving standards, particularly in Sydney are generally poorer than in the UK. However New South Wales has over many years demonstrated an extremely good reduction in injuries and deaths on the roads. Part of this has come from GLS. Certainly all the drivers I assess who have had to come through GLS are better than those who did not have to do so (the older ones). Key areas of improvement are hazard awareness, reaction to hazards and collision avoidance space and behaviour towards others, particularly vulnerable road users.I believe that our authorities have several times considered and rejected the introduction of graduated driver licensing. And Pass Plus post test training has fallen largely into disuse because the insurance companies found that it did not materially improve new driver claims performance.
Introducing a GLS is a very political 'hot potato' and it was probably easier to introduce here because of the higher number of fatalities of young people in late '90's and early '00's and now it is accepted. The UK has the safest roads in the world (together with Sweden) so governments will probably hold back or are to busy with other things. But if a GLS was introduced perhaps the safest roads could be even safer - and in England and Wales perhaps .05 BAC and random breath testing?
A lot of the replies are judged on personal basis (as I did with reference to my daughter!) but the bigger picture is what I was relating to - pre-17 driver training does not necessarily give a new driver an advantage over someone who does not do any pre-17 training. A well planned program, such as the U17CC may be enjoyable and give control skills early on but there still is the on-public-road knowledge to be acquired. Driving on a circuit may not contribute to the ability to drive safely down a high street.
Anyway, I have related my point from an Australian view. If an under-17 program is available and the parents are convinced that it is a good thing to do and that the young drivers' attitudes are sound then it can't hurt. From an individual point that's fine. But like 'advanced drivers' it seems that the number of new drivers going through the U17CC is very small and is unlikely to contribute greatly to crash reduction.
TRL 2013 – PPR673 – Novice drivers: Evidence Review and Evaluation
Main findings - Pre-driver education
There is extensive provision of pre-driver education and training in GB via numerous public, private and charitable organisations.
These interventions can be categorised as seeking to improve safety by aiming to satisfy one or more of the following: influencing attitudes, imparting knowledge, and improving skills.
Very few interventions have been evaluated and most evaluations that have been undertaken are of such low scientific quality that their results cannot be taken as reliable.
The evidence base for pre-driver education and training is weak at best, and effectively non-existent when collisions and injuries are used as the outcome of interest.
No properly-evaluated intervention has demonstrated a reliable reduction in novice driver collisions.
[UK research - also covers Graduated Licencing and your New Drivers' Act]
Main findings - Pre-driver education
There is extensive provision of pre-driver education and training in GB via numerous public, private and charitable organisations.
These interventions can be categorised as seeking to improve safety by aiming to satisfy one or more of the following: influencing attitudes, imparting knowledge, and improving skills.
Very few interventions have been evaluated and most evaluations that have been undertaken are of such low scientific quality that their results cannot be taken as reliable.
The evidence base for pre-driver education and training is weak at best, and effectively non-existent when collisions and injuries are used as the outcome of interest.
No properly-evaluated intervention has demonstrated a reliable reduction in novice driver collisions.
[UK research - also covers Graduated Licencing and your New Drivers' Act]
MarkwG said:
It sounds like your daughters driving pathway wasn't that different to my sons; except, he covered over 10000 miles, & around 300 hours driving, all before he undertook his driving test. That gave him a level of competence was well beyond the minimum required here, & a much better attitude to driving safely. Since then, he's driven many more thousands of miles, on some of the most congested & busy roads in this part of the world. Hopefully his younger brother will do the same.
The link I provided is to a road safety charity, non-profit making, involved in young driver training - so the only axe to grind is the desire to improve road safety. With any data set there are bound to be flaws: it could reasonably be argued the people most likely to participate are those more risk averse & hence less likely to be at risk anyway, but that doesn't detract from the basic principle. My family have been involved since my eldest son was 11 - he's 21 now, & one of the best & safest road drivers I know; I'm hopeful his younger brother will follow suit.
Was the 10000 miles and 300 hours before on-road training? 33.3 mph is quite a high average for a learner on congested roads. Or was that whilst a provisional licence was held and on-road? And over what period? If over a year it's quite impressive to spend almost six hours a week tuition/supervision.The link I provided is to a road safety charity, non-profit making, involved in young driver training - so the only axe to grind is the desire to improve road safety. With any data set there are bound to be flaws: it could reasonably be argued the people most likely to participate are those more risk averse & hence less likely to be at risk anyway, but that doesn't detract from the basic principle. My family have been involved since my eldest son was 11 - he's 21 now, & one of the best & safest road drivers I know; I'm hopeful his younger brother will follow suit.
Charities have to make money to pay their staff and overheads to exist, even if all staff are unpaid volunteers.
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