New driver questions?
Discussion
Hi all
Not sure if most appropiate section to post to, so appologies if not?
Newly passed driver - driven a little bit each weekend for the last two weeks around my local area; havent ventured very far to be honest.
In my 30s and probably not the most confident of drivers hence leaving it so late to learn, but commitments and necessity to drive have arisen. That said, I did pass first time with 3 minors, but I want to be able to drive good and safe at the end of the day :c.
I learnt on a diesel, and while instructor said on the first lesson to add gas when pulling away; (especially on a petrol), was easily forgotten, plus easy to do with clutch only due to diesel, which I certainly had fallen foul of when learning. Though I did improve from reading best practices online and reminding myself.
However, I've now got my petrol car, and I'm finding it hard to find the biting point and the appropiate revs to get a smooth pull away without stalling or juddering?
I was also taught to "sit on the biting point" but have been told I should sit in neutral at traffic lights etc by my dad, as will otherwise ruin the clutch? But I have certainly stalled a couple of times now trying to do gas /clutch and hand brake in such a short period... My main concern is T junctions where there should be plenty of space to get out if you're nippy but worried im going to stall!
It's also leaving me a little bit of confusion about clutch control such as with bay parking /reversing. I was taught to cover brake, control speed via clutch - fine with diesel but should I also be applying any gas with a petrol for the same basis of pulling away?? For example when reversing back onto my drive which has a moderate slope to it, do I apply more gas and go softer on the clutch, or no gas and more clutch? i.e. should I be aiming to have a fully depress clutch before adding thinking of adding gas as to not be slipping the clutch??
I'm not sure if I am over thinking it and being too cautious of ruining my clutch and doing too little revs (when I think im applying a lot) and /or applying too much or too little clutch at the same time? I can quite easily add a lot of Revs and clutch up to a quite visual and audible dip to the car, but then I definitely think I'm ruining the clutch (other than the necessity of hill starts).
Not sure if most appropiate section to post to, so appologies if not?
Newly passed driver - driven a little bit each weekend for the last two weeks around my local area; havent ventured very far to be honest.
In my 30s and probably not the most confident of drivers hence leaving it so late to learn, but commitments and necessity to drive have arisen. That said, I did pass first time with 3 minors, but I want to be able to drive good and safe at the end of the day :c.
I learnt on a diesel, and while instructor said on the first lesson to add gas when pulling away; (especially on a petrol), was easily forgotten, plus easy to do with clutch only due to diesel, which I certainly had fallen foul of when learning. Though I did improve from reading best practices online and reminding myself.
However, I've now got my petrol car, and I'm finding it hard to find the biting point and the appropiate revs to get a smooth pull away without stalling or juddering?
I was also taught to "sit on the biting point" but have been told I should sit in neutral at traffic lights etc by my dad, as will otherwise ruin the clutch? But I have certainly stalled a couple of times now trying to do gas /clutch and hand brake in such a short period... My main concern is T junctions where there should be plenty of space to get out if you're nippy but worried im going to stall!
It's also leaving me a little bit of confusion about clutch control such as with bay parking /reversing. I was taught to cover brake, control speed via clutch - fine with diesel but should I also be applying any gas with a petrol for the same basis of pulling away?? For example when reversing back onto my drive which has a moderate slope to it, do I apply more gas and go softer on the clutch, or no gas and more clutch? i.e. should I be aiming to have a fully depress clutch before adding thinking of adding gas as to not be slipping the clutch??
I'm not sure if I am over thinking it and being too cautious of ruining my clutch and doing too little revs (when I think im applying a lot) and /or applying too much or too little clutch at the same time? I can quite easily add a lot of Revs and clutch up to a quite visual and audible dip to the car, but then I definitely think I'm ruining the clutch (other than the necessity of hill starts).
Edited by lukus12345 on Monday 12th November 19:16
lukus12345 said:
Hi all
Not sure if most appropiate section to post to, so appologies if not?
Newly passed driver - driven a little bit each weekend for the last two weeks around my local area; havent ventured very far to be honest.
In my 30s and probably not the most confident of drivers hence leaving it so late to learn, but commitments and necessity to drive have arisen. That said, I did pass first time with 3 minors, but I want to be able to drive good and safe at the end of the day :c.
I learnt on a diesel, and while instructor said on the first lesson to add gas when pulling away; (especially on a petrol), was easily forgotten, plus easy to do with clutch only due to diesel, which I certainly had fallen foul of when learning. Though I did improve from reading best practices online and reminding myself.
However, I've now got my petrol car, and I'm finding it hard to find the biting point and the appropiate revs to get a smooth pull away without stalling or juddering?
I was also taught to "sit on the biting point" but have been told I should sit in neutral at traffic lights etc by my dad, as will otherwise ruin the clutch? But I have certainly stalled a couple of times now trying to do gas /clutch and hand brake in such a short period... My main concern is T junctions where there should be plenty of space to get out if you're nippy but worried im going to stall!
It's also leaving me a little bit of confusion about clutch control such as with bay parking /reversing. I was taught to cover brake, control speed via clutch - fine with diesel but should I also be applying any gas with a petrol for the same basis of pulling away?? For example when reversing back onto my drive which has a moderate slope to it, do I apply more gas and go softer on the clutch, or no gas and more clutch? i.e. should I be aiming to have a fully depress clutch before adding thinking of adding gas as to not be slipping the clutch??
I'm not sure if I am over thinking it and being too cautious of ruining my clutch and doing too little revs (when I think im applying a lot) and /or applying too much or too little clutch at the same time? I can quite easily add a lot of Revs and clutch up to a quite visual and audible dip to the car, but then I definitely think I'm ruining the clutch (other than the necessity of hill starts).
And then there are roundabouts....
The bear pit petrifies me just looking at it on google maps ( https://www.google.com/maps/place/The+Bearpit/@51....
I just can't get my head around it. From the above google map view I can see middle lane is marked on the road as a4044 (straight on) and right lane is A38 (right) and can easily tell which way /lanes cars SHOULD be going - but on the street level view, before the a4044 exit, appears to be a mass of road (2 exit lanes + 3 round about lanes) with no lines guiding you out, and can easily see myself getting confused here!
presumably the right lane can take the second exit of the a4044, take the next exit (a38) or move over to one of the two right turn lanes to U turn etc. whereas the middle lane would would have to exit in the first lane of a4044?
This one which is a bit more local to me so I generally "know" what lanes to take anyway:
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4158023,-2.5916936...
First sign shows what you need if going stright on only. Further down, you can see what the other lanes are:
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4151458,-2.592756,...
but by that point, it has already split into 3 lanes and the sign is very close to roundabout junction? 4 exits - is there any rule of thumb here? lanes go 1st /2nd, 2nd /3rd, 3rd /4th but not sure how I am supposed to gauge this from signs only?
There were some routes on my lessons with two round abouts in quick succession, where we had to take the lane that ensured we exited on the right most lane, so we were then in the correct lane to go right on the second roundabout, and I really couldn't comprehend how to get that information from the signs (other than local knowlege of prior planning?)
:c
On the clutch stuff:Not sure if most appropiate section to post to, so appologies if not?
Newly passed driver - driven a little bit each weekend for the last two weeks around my local area; havent ventured very far to be honest.
In my 30s and probably not the most confident of drivers hence leaving it so late to learn, but commitments and necessity to drive have arisen. That said, I did pass first time with 3 minors, but I want to be able to drive good and safe at the end of the day :c.
I learnt on a diesel, and while instructor said on the first lesson to add gas when pulling away; (especially on a petrol), was easily forgotten, plus easy to do with clutch only due to diesel, which I certainly had fallen foul of when learning. Though I did improve from reading best practices online and reminding myself.
However, I've now got my petrol car, and I'm finding it hard to find the biting point and the appropiate revs to get a smooth pull away without stalling or juddering?
I was also taught to "sit on the biting point" but have been told I should sit in neutral at traffic lights etc by my dad, as will otherwise ruin the clutch? But I have certainly stalled a couple of times now trying to do gas /clutch and hand brake in such a short period... My main concern is T junctions where there should be plenty of space to get out if you're nippy but worried im going to stall!
It's also leaving me a little bit of confusion about clutch control such as with bay parking /reversing. I was taught to cover brake, control speed via clutch - fine with diesel but should I also be applying any gas with a petrol for the same basis of pulling away?? For example when reversing back onto my drive which has a moderate slope to it, do I apply more gas and go softer on the clutch, or no gas and more clutch? i.e. should I be aiming to have a fully depress clutch before adding thinking of adding gas as to not be slipping the clutch??
I'm not sure if I am over thinking it and being too cautious of ruining my clutch and doing too little revs (when I think im applying a lot) and /or applying too much or too little clutch at the same time? I can quite easily add a lot of Revs and clutch up to a quite visual and audible dip to the car, but then I definitely think I'm ruining the clutch (other than the necessity of hill starts).
And then there are roundabouts....
The bear pit petrifies me just looking at it on google maps ( https://www.google.com/maps/place/The+Bearpit/@51....
I just can't get my head around it. From the above google map view I can see middle lane is marked on the road as a4044 (straight on) and right lane is A38 (right) and can easily tell which way /lanes cars SHOULD be going - but on the street level view, before the a4044 exit, appears to be a mass of road (2 exit lanes + 3 round about lanes) with no lines guiding you out, and can easily see myself getting confused here!
presumably the right lane can take the second exit of the a4044, take the next exit (a38) or move over to one of the two right turn lanes to U turn etc. whereas the middle lane would would have to exit in the first lane of a4044?
This one which is a bit more local to me so I generally "know" what lanes to take anyway:
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4158023,-2.5916936...
First sign shows what you need if going stright on only. Further down, you can see what the other lanes are:
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4151458,-2.592756,...
but by that point, it has already split into 3 lanes and the sign is very close to roundabout junction? 4 exits - is there any rule of thumb here? lanes go 1st /2nd, 2nd /3rd, 3rd /4th but not sure how I am supposed to gauge this from signs only?
There were some routes on my lessons with two round abouts in quick succession, where we had to take the lane that ensured we exited on the right most lane, so we were then in the correct lane to go right on the second roundabout, and I really couldn't comprehend how to get that information from the signs (other than local knowlege of prior planning?)
:c
You should never sit on the biting point unless you are doing something like a hillstart and then only for a moment before you begin to pull away.
It sounds like you have been taught to rely on the torque of a diesel where covering the brake while manoeuvering sounds sensible if the car is happy without additional revs.
Most petrol cars are happy enough to get moving without extra revs if you are very slow and delicate with the clutch but anytime you want to move slower than the car would move in 1st or reverse while idling then you have no choice but to slip the clutch. If you are reversing into your driveway and need that bit of extra power it is simpler (to my mind) to apply a constant little bit of throttle and control your speed with the clutch, you'll just get into a mess if you try to adjust the throttle and clutch at the same time.
I think you are worrying about it a bit too much, it takes time to adjust to the biting point of a new car especially if you haven't driven many different cars. Go practice, find a quiet carpark do lots of parking, practice pulling away until you get the feel of it (and don't worry, a bit of time for you adjusting to it isn't going to kill your clutch noticably, they are pretty tough things all things considered).
As for the roundabouts? I didn't look at the ones you posted but one thing you could do is randomly pick a lane with other cars in it and follow and observe the route they take, once you spot the lane markings you'll get the hang of it.
lukus12345 said:
I learnt on a diesel, and while instructor said on the first lesson to add gas when pulling away; (especially on a petrol), was easily forgotten, plus easy to do with clutch only due to diesel, which I certainly had fallen foul of when learning. Though I did improve from reading best practices online and reminding myself.
It sounds like your instructor allowed you to develop a very slightly bad habit there, and hasn’t corrected it. Whilst you certainly can just lift the clutch on a diesel car without applying any power, a petrol engine will be much less happy and may well stall. Also, bear in mind that by just raising the clutch without power you are actually relying on the fact that the car you’re driving has a modern engine management system, and it is actually applying a little bit of power for you to prevent the engine stalling. Older cars (more than say 15 years) won’t do that and are much more likely to stall.lukus12345 said:
However, I've now got my petrol car, and I'm finding it hard to find the biting point and the appropiate revs to get a smooth pull away without stalling or juddering?
This will come with practice. Relax! Go to a quiet place and practise. Don’t be afraid to apply a little bit more gas - better to have a bit too much than too little. Don’t worry if it’s not particularly quick or elegant to start with - your clutch technique will optimise itself in time as your brain transfers the skill into muscle memory. You can’t hurry that process - your brain needs time!lukus12345 said:
I was also taught to "sit on the biting point" but have been told I should sit in neutral at traffic lights etc by my dad, as will otherwise ruin the clutch? But I have certainly stalled a couple of times now trying to do gas /clutch and hand brake in such a short period... My main concern is T junctions where there should be plenty of space to get out if you're nippy but worried im going to stall!
Your dad is right that you don’t want to be sitting on the biting point for long periods of time. You will wear your clutch out much faster, and that’s an expensive job to replace. But it’s okay to find the biting point a little in advance when you believe you’re about to move away - say when you can see the traffic lights change or when you can see a gap in the traffic. Allow yourself as much time as you feel you need to find that biting point, without sitting on that point permanently. Again, as you do more practice you will get better at finding the biting point, and you’ll be able to do it very quickly without thinking - but your brain needs time to learn that muscle memory!lukus12345 said:
It's also leaving me a little bit of confusion about clutch control such as with bay parking /reversing. I was taught to cover brake, control speed via clutch - fine with diesel but should I also be applying any gas with a petrol for the same basis of pulling away?? For example when reversing back onto my drive which has a moderate slope to it, do I apply more gas and go softer on the clutch, or no gas and more clutch? i.e. should I be aiming to have a fully depress clutch before adding thinking of adding gas as to not be slipping the clutch??
Hmmm... That does make it sound like you were taught not to apply any power at all when reversing, and that means you are relying on modern cars being very forgiving in this respect, especially diesels. You shouldn’t need to cover the brake - you should be going so slowly that pressing the clutch down should allow the car to stop quickly enough, and there should be plenty of time to move your right foot onto the brake if necessary. If you’re worried about hitting something because you can’t brake quickly enough then you’re reversing much too fast.When reversing up a slope you will definitely need more power/revs, and you will need to lift the clutch slightly more than you otherwise would. Reversing down a slope you might not need any power, and possibly you can have the clutch all the way down - in which case you would indeed cover the brake and use that to control speed. It depends how steep the slope is.
lukus12345 said:
I'm not sure if I am over thinking it and being too cautious of ruining my clutch and doing too little revs (when I think im applying a lot) and /or applying too much or too little clutch at the same time? I can quite easily add a lot of Revs and clutch up to a quite visual and audible dip to the car, but then I definitely think I'm ruining the clutch (other than the necessity of hill starts).
I think you are worrying too much! You won’t “ruin” your clutch - it’ll just wear out at 50,000 miles instead of going on for 100,000+. (My last car never had a new clutch in over 170,000 miles.) Your clutch technique will naturally improve as you practise, so don’t worry! Allow your brain the time it needs to optimise what your feet are doing.(My credentials: I’m not yet a driving instructor, but I’m at a late stage of training to be one, so I’ve done a lot of thinking about how I would teach students.)
Edited by Dr Mike Oxgreen on Sunday 28th October 10:48
Pica-Pica said:
Practise clutch work as you drive normally. It will soon be second nature.
Secondly, don’t post long posts on separate subjects.
Bit stifling that, comes to "the premier site" asks on advanced driving forum about some basics and gets talked down.Secondly, don’t post long posts on separate subjects.
Are you a mod?
Funny coincidence, I had a rude awaking today on parallel parking, on a steep hill, into a confined space.
Bit of a wake up call.
But SWIMBO commented on how well I did and that she wouldn't have attempted it.. Personally my mind flipped back momentarily on how I did same with a tractor and trailer on a steeper slope in the rain slicked mud some months back...piece of cake..
Kccv23highliftcam said:
Bit stifling that, comes to "the premier site" asks on advanced driving forum
I'd have contributed to the answers if the original post hadn't exceeded my attention span - and I'm not even a millennial.... Perhaps breaking such a long post down into shorter individual threads may help the OP.Thanks for the replies all, was much appreciated.
Have improved greatly with respect to clutch control - haven't stalled for a while (although a couple of close ones) and reversing into drive a lot easier now, albeit, maybe a bit too fast some times.
Sitting in neutral when stationary now too!
Regarding long post, my appologies! I could have probably stripped it down much shorter but wanted to be concise, certainly don't want it to be a cause of an arguement and can appreciate it's probably a massive wall if viewed on a phone.
Have improved greatly with respect to clutch control - haven't stalled for a while (although a couple of close ones) and reversing into drive a lot easier now, albeit, maybe a bit too fast some times.
Sitting in neutral when stationary now too!
Dr Mike Oxgreen said:
(My credentials: I’m not yet a driving instructor, but I’m at a late stage of training to be one, so I’ve done a lot of thinking about how I would teach students.)
Would certainly suggest reiterating to students; gas > biting point more than just once or twice in the first lesson, though I can imagine some instructors over the years have resorted to turning a blind eye to it knowing it'll be the student's problem once they pass, which seems to be the impression I got i.e. taught to passEdited by Dr Mike Oxgreen on Sunday 28th October 10:48
Regarding long post, my appologies! I could have probably stripped it down much shorter but wanted to be concise, certainly don't want it to be a cause of an arguement and can appreciate it's probably a massive wall if viewed on a phone.
Interesting read.
As an ADI I am constantly staggered by the number of students that I've inherited from other instructors that have been told:
1. no gas when moving off
2. when maneuvering, find the bite point and then use the brakes to control the speed.
For some it can take a while to correct these issues.
As an ADI I am constantly staggered by the number of students that I've inherited from other instructors that have been told:
1. no gas when moving off
2. when maneuvering, find the bite point and then use the brakes to control the speed.
For some it can take a while to correct these issues.
I am also an ADI, I am sorry you felt/feel you have been short changed by your instructor.
Try pushing "gas" pedal down about the thickness of a £ coin, then bring clutch up to bite, so when you release handbrake the car will start to move, then " ease" off the clutch squeezing the gas pedal down.....you will move off smoothly.
I teach in a diesel, and suggest that way to move forwards to my "pups"
For reversing I do say to use clutch only as my Mini manages it fine, but do stress to them all that ALL cars are different, and even the same make/model car may have a different "feel" to the clutch/bite, the more so if it is a petrol car where a little help from the gas pedal can help
You lack experience, you proved you could drive safely to pass the test, in a few 1000 miles you wonder why you worried so much. Your first 3 months are going to be tough, then managing a whole year without an "incident" after that 1st year your risk will reduce.....your age means you will be a little more nervous than a testosterone laden 17 year old who is fearless, and brainless!
Don't worry too much about your clutch, my Mini has done 139000 miles and still on it's first clutch, and I assure you it's had a hard time at times, your control will improve the more your confidence/skill improves
Good luck
Try pushing "gas" pedal down about the thickness of a £ coin, then bring clutch up to bite, so when you release handbrake the car will start to move, then " ease" off the clutch squeezing the gas pedal down.....you will move off smoothly.
I teach in a diesel, and suggest that way to move forwards to my "pups"
For reversing I do say to use clutch only as my Mini manages it fine, but do stress to them all that ALL cars are different, and even the same make/model car may have a different "feel" to the clutch/bite, the more so if it is a petrol car where a little help from the gas pedal can help
You lack experience, you proved you could drive safely to pass the test, in a few 1000 miles you wonder why you worried so much. Your first 3 months are going to be tough, then managing a whole year without an "incident" after that 1st year your risk will reduce.....your age means you will be a little more nervous than a testosterone laden 17 year old who is fearless, and brainless!
Don't worry too much about your clutch, my Mini has done 139000 miles and still on it's first clutch, and I assure you it's had a hard time at times, your control will improve the more your confidence/skill improves
Good luck
Edited by watchnut on Wednesday 28th November 16:14
Evening all,
My instructor decided to make my tightrope a little more wobbly by changing driving schools half way through my lessons. Started off with a Focus 1.6 Petrol with the AA. Then moved to BSM, who were using 1.3 Diesel Corsas at the time. Completely different power delivery, and it does seem like a tricky art to start with but you will get used to it and it will become second nature before too long.
I would also advise against sitting on the clutch biting point for too long, just causes excess wear and you car will start t smell interesting if you do it too much. One thing I used to do before I set off is when I switched the car on, I would leave the handbrake on, and just with no throttle find the biting point (observing when the engine note drops slightly), all before I even pull away. That way, when I'm out on the road, I don't need to worry about where it is for hill starts, quick getaways etc. That may well be terrible advice but it worked for me, and it didn't take me too long before I was diving into cars with confidence.
All the best OP and drive safe!
My instructor decided to make my tightrope a little more wobbly by changing driving schools half way through my lessons. Started off with a Focus 1.6 Petrol with the AA. Then moved to BSM, who were using 1.3 Diesel Corsas at the time. Completely different power delivery, and it does seem like a tricky art to start with but you will get used to it and it will become second nature before too long.
I would also advise against sitting on the clutch biting point for too long, just causes excess wear and you car will start t smell interesting if you do it too much. One thing I used to do before I set off is when I switched the car on, I would leave the handbrake on, and just with no throttle find the biting point (observing when the engine note drops slightly), all before I even pull away. That way, when I'm out on the road, I don't need to worry about where it is for hill starts, quick getaways etc. That may well be terrible advice but it worked for me, and it didn't take me too long before I was diving into cars with confidence.
All the best OP and drive safe!
FK said:
Evening all,
It does seem like a tricky art to start with but you will get used to it and it will become second nature before too long.
I would also advise against sitting on the clutch biting point for too long, just causes excess wear and you car will start t smell interesting if you do it too much. One thing I used to do before I set off is when I switched the car on, I would leave the handbrake on, and just with no throttle find the biting point (observing when the engine note drops slightly), all before I even pull away. That way, when I'm out on the road, I don't need to worry about where it is for hill starts, quick getaways etc. That may well be terrible advice but it worked for me, and it didn't take me too long before I was diving into cars with confidence.
All the best OP and drive safe!
^^^ This.It does seem like a tricky art to start with but you will get used to it and it will become second nature before too long.
I would also advise against sitting on the clutch biting point for too long, just causes excess wear and you car will start t smell interesting if you do it too much. One thing I used to do before I set off is when I switched the car on, I would leave the handbrake on, and just with no throttle find the biting point (observing when the engine note drops slightly), all before I even pull away. That way, when I'm out on the road, I don't need to worry about where it is for hill starts, quick getaways etc. That may well be terrible advice but it worked for me, and it didn't take me too long before I was diving into cars with confidence.
All the best OP and drive safe!
All manual cars will be different in feel. Clutch biting point, some will be heavier/lighter, further in/out, the accelerator will different be the same. I still have to learn the clutch and accelerator feel in every different car I get in so don't feel your any different.
The clutch and accelerator are not switches, they both need to be gradually brought out and in together. It is possible to move a car on a clutch alone petrol or diesel but you have to drag the clutch out really slowly, which is no good at a junction.
I think the best way to think is find your clutch bite apply the throttle at the same speed as you remove the clutch and that is whether you want to quick/slow, reversing whatever.
The driving 'skills' they teach you are definitely vehicle specific, which makes sense as you will be using that vehicle for the test.
In my youngest sons case, he went from a Diesel school car to a small Aygo petrol when he passed earlier this year.
After a few days of driving, he complained to me that the Aygo kept stalling in reverse/ there is something wrong with it..
It turns out the instructor had taught him regimentally to reverse without ever touching the throttle pedal, as the diesel torque was able to cope, even upslope. In the petrol car, it would stall on anything over a slight gradient.
As soon as he knew that it was OK to feather the throttle as well, he was sorted.
Moral: You will find your own way, based on what works best for you, very quickly.
In my youngest sons case, he went from a Diesel school car to a small Aygo petrol when he passed earlier this year.
After a few days of driving, he complained to me that the Aygo kept stalling in reverse/ there is something wrong with it..
It turns out the instructor had taught him regimentally to reverse without ever touching the throttle pedal, as the diesel torque was able to cope, even upslope. In the petrol car, it would stall on anything over a slight gradient.
As soon as he knew that it was OK to feather the throttle as well, he was sorted.
Moral: You will find your own way, based on what works best for you, very quickly.
Edited by Hol on Wednesday 19th December 08:06
Yet more reasons why there are far better ways to learn to drive, this being the best I have found. https://under17-carclub.co.uk/
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