Steering - Bit Pushy
Discussion
Since I read about this technique I have been unable to come to terms with it. Now, this may be due to my many years of instruction, where my students were immersed - for approximately an hour - in a car park developing an extremely pronounced pull-push technique.
I myself employed the same pull-push technique, pretty much exclusively, to the point where I would reduce speed slightly rather than "go rotational". I am not agiainst rotational and would rather sit with an accomplished rotational steerer (sic) than an underdeveloped pull-pusher.
That said. This article appeared in a well known magazine by a well respected rally driver. However, I have tried this technique and it just feels wrong.....I only have access to one vehicle, but the initiation of turn in feels completely wrong. Well, .....it all feels awkward and less sensitive. But that might just be me.
Here is the article: "coached by XXXXXX. among the many lessons that XXXXX shared was the proper way to steer while driving. He instructed us in two methods (think of the steering wheel as a giant clock):
1) Hand-over-hand. To turn left, move your right hand down to the 5 o'clock position and push toward the left. Move your left hand over your right past the 12 o'clock position and place your left hand over the top, essentially forming an 'X' with your wrists on top of the wheel. Release your right hand and continue to steer with your left. Your hands should eventually meet at the 6 o'clock position.
2) Shuffling. To turn left, move your right hand down to the 5 o'clock position and push towards the left. At the same time, slide your left hand up the wheel to the right. Both your hands should meet at the 12 o'clock position. From there, move your hands back to their respective places and repeat the process to continue your turn."
To my mind the technique may apply to autocross, but falls flat for me on the road. But that may well be my failing. My rotational, although good, is not as accomplished as my pull-push...
What are your views please?
Edit: it is the PUSH that I find odd. Plus the 5/7 start position...
I myself employed the same pull-push technique, pretty much exclusively, to the point where I would reduce speed slightly rather than "go rotational". I am not agiainst rotational and would rather sit with an accomplished rotational steerer (sic) than an underdeveloped pull-pusher.
That said. This article appeared in a well known magazine by a well respected rally driver. However, I have tried this technique and it just feels wrong.....I only have access to one vehicle, but the initiation of turn in feels completely wrong. Well, .....it all feels awkward and less sensitive. But that might just be me.
Here is the article: "coached by XXXXXX. among the many lessons that XXXXX shared was the proper way to steer while driving. He instructed us in two methods (think of the steering wheel as a giant clock):
1) Hand-over-hand. To turn left, move your right hand down to the 5 o'clock position and push toward the left. Move your left hand over your right past the 12 o'clock position and place your left hand over the top, essentially forming an 'X' with your wrists on top of the wheel. Release your right hand and continue to steer with your left. Your hands should eventually meet at the 6 o'clock position.
2) Shuffling. To turn left, move your right hand down to the 5 o'clock position and push towards the left. At the same time, slide your left hand up the wheel to the right. Both your hands should meet at the 12 o'clock position. From there, move your hands back to their respective places and repeat the process to continue your turn."
To my mind the technique may apply to autocross, but falls flat for me on the road. But that may well be my failing. My rotational, although good, is not as accomplished as my pull-push...
What are your views please?
Edit: it is the PUSH that I find odd. Plus the 5/7 start position...
Edited by PhilAsia on Saturday 2nd June 16:28
Anyone who refers to pull-push as “shuffling” is doing it wrong. Done well it’s a smooth, fluid and quite stylish motion.
I would suggest ignoring whoever wrote that stuff. They may be a rally driver, but that doesn’t necessarily make them an expert road driver.
Pull-push works far better when you start with a downward pull rather than an upward push.
I would suggest ignoring whoever wrote that stuff. They may be a rally driver, but that doesn’t necessarily make them an expert road driver.
Pull-push works far better when you start with a downward pull rather than an upward push.
Dr Mike Oxgreen said:
Anyone who refers to pull-push as “shuffling” is doing it wrong. Done well it’s a smooth, fluid and quite stylish motion.
I would suggest ignoring whoever wrote that stuff. They may be a rally driver, but that doesn’t necessarily make them an expert road driver.
Pull-push works far better when you start with a downward pull rather than an upward push.
To an extent it is semantics, however I have seen it suggested that it can be better if the initial reactive force pushes you down into the seat rather than pulling you up. I would suggest ignoring whoever wrote that stuff. They may be a rally driver, but that doesn’t necessarily make them an expert road driver.
Pull-push works far better when you start with a downward pull rather than an upward push.
Toltec said:
To an extent it is semantics, however I have seen it suggested that it can be better if the initial reactive force pushes you down into the seat rather than pulling you up.
I doubt that’s at all relevant on the road. Perhaps it’s true on the racetrack, and maybe that’s why this rally driver chap describes it like that. But for the road, starting with a pull gives much finer control.Dr Mike Oxgreen said:
Toltec said:
To an extent it is semantics, however I have seen it suggested that it can be better if the initial reactive force pushes you down into the seat rather than pulling you up.
I doubt that’s at all relevant on the road. Perhaps it’s true on the racetrack, and maybe that’s why this rally driver chap describes it like that. But for the road, starting with a pull gives much finer control.I tend to used fixed, then pre-positioned and then alternating (pull/push) if more lock is needed.
Dr Mike Oxgreen said:
Toltec said:
To an extent it is semantics, however I have seen it suggested that it can be better if the initial reactive force pushes you down into the seat rather than pulling you up.
I doubt that’s at all relevant on the road. Perhaps it’s true on the racetrack, and maybe that’s why this rally driver chap describes it like that. But for the road, starting with a pull gives much finer control.Rotational (fixed) steering is only for minor movements on a straight-ish road. Using rotational for a bend can (and has) get me caught if the bend tightens.
There's a common issue with nomenclature here.
Fixed Grip or Fixed Input steering is where the hands (or even better, the fingertips) stay in the same position on the wheel rim through a hazard. Hands are usually at the 9 and 3 positions for balance, although I've seen it done using 10 to 2.
It's often said that no hand should pass the twelve o'clock position when using fixed grip, but assuming you're not in imminent danger of an airbag-activating collision I see no reason not to keep using it until your forearms are about to touch. If more lock is required, it's simple enough to transition it into...
Rotational steering, which is the posh name for what most people are actually doing - i.e. hand over hand. This is good for rapid steering inputs, but has a number of other disadvantages.
Pull Push is a good general-purpose technique - done well, it's smooth and can add a lot of steering quickly while maintaining access to the minor controls. Fixed-grip doesn't work as well on roundabouts for example, where you need to get to the indicators mid-hazard. However, if you're doing it wrong with a jerky action or not using large enough movements covering most of the rim, it'll become...
Shuffling or Granny Steering, which nobody wants to see.
Palming or Washing the Windows is great for parking and the like, but isn't controlled or sensitive enough for the open road.
Predictive or Pre-Positioning is a variation of fixed grip where the hands are moved before the bend so that they are at 9 and 3 mid-bend. I can't get the hang of this and don't find it useful, but others swear by it.
One hand on the top of the wheel is an excellent clue that the driver is paying no attention to the task at all, is completely ignorant of the niceties of handling a car, or (being charitable) only has one arm. There is no other excuse, and anyone doing this should just go the whole hog and adopt the...
Gangsta Lean which takes the one hand on the wheel thing and adds a slouching-low-in-the-seat posture to avoid being recognised and minimise the all too common risk of being shot by a passer by.
Fixed Grip or Fixed Input steering is where the hands (or even better, the fingertips) stay in the same position on the wheel rim through a hazard. Hands are usually at the 9 and 3 positions for balance, although I've seen it done using 10 to 2.
It's often said that no hand should pass the twelve o'clock position when using fixed grip, but assuming you're not in imminent danger of an airbag-activating collision I see no reason not to keep using it until your forearms are about to touch. If more lock is required, it's simple enough to transition it into...
Rotational steering, which is the posh name for what most people are actually doing - i.e. hand over hand. This is good for rapid steering inputs, but has a number of other disadvantages.
Pull Push is a good general-purpose technique - done well, it's smooth and can add a lot of steering quickly while maintaining access to the minor controls. Fixed-grip doesn't work as well on roundabouts for example, where you need to get to the indicators mid-hazard. However, if you're doing it wrong with a jerky action or not using large enough movements covering most of the rim, it'll become...
Shuffling or Granny Steering, which nobody wants to see.
Palming or Washing the Windows is great for parking and the like, but isn't controlled or sensitive enough for the open road.
Predictive or Pre-Positioning is a variation of fixed grip where the hands are moved before the bend so that they are at 9 and 3 mid-bend. I can't get the hang of this and don't find it useful, but others swear by it.
One hand on the top of the wheel is an excellent clue that the driver is paying no attention to the task at all, is completely ignorant of the niceties of handling a car, or (being charitable) only has one arm. There is no other excuse, and anyone doing this should just go the whole hog and adopt the...
Gangsta Lean which takes the one hand on the wheel thing and adds a slouching-low-in-the-seat posture to avoid being recognised and minimise the all too common risk of being shot by a passer by.
Thanks for the input gentlemen..
Just for the record I, as stated, use predominantly pull-push. For a right turn I will generally prepare with observations and take my cue from that. If there is no other road user my right hand will quickly come fully round the wheel to 9 o'clock and one full sweep of 270° to 6. If there are other road users I start at 12.
Through curves I utilize fixed grip, up to 11 for R, 1 for L. Any further and I preposition to be at 9-3 as much as possible.
I generally don't use rotational, except for the odd car park etc, but force myself to do so in order to be comfortable with its use. I always thought and taught that rotational was for when pull-push had run out of pace to keep up with the required inputs, i.e., you're out of control. I have read that rotational is faster and I agree. However, it is only marginally quicker and pull-push (I feel....for me) is superior up until the point at which the tank slapper is getting the upper hand.
As for the push technique, I've been trying it for a month now and it just doesn't make any sense to me. Some sensitivity is lost at the initiation "hint" phase, the smooth natural weight drop of the initial movement of the arm is lost, it seems like I'm using the wrong muscles, etc, but I'm still trying to establish if it still may be me and my years of muscle memory objecting to a new awkwardness...
I thought I would be shot down for my rigidity to pull-push. Or maybe I haven't waited long enough..😀
Once again, thanks for your input. Keep it coming.
Thanks, Phil.
Just for the record I, as stated, use predominantly pull-push. For a right turn I will generally prepare with observations and take my cue from that. If there is no other road user my right hand will quickly come fully round the wheel to 9 o'clock and one full sweep of 270° to 6. If there are other road users I start at 12.
Through curves I utilize fixed grip, up to 11 for R, 1 for L. Any further and I preposition to be at 9-3 as much as possible.
I generally don't use rotational, except for the odd car park etc, but force myself to do so in order to be comfortable with its use. I always thought and taught that rotational was for when pull-push had run out of pace to keep up with the required inputs, i.e., you're out of control. I have read that rotational is faster and I agree. However, it is only marginally quicker and pull-push (I feel....for me) is superior up until the point at which the tank slapper is getting the upper hand.
As for the push technique, I've been trying it for a month now and it just doesn't make any sense to me. Some sensitivity is lost at the initiation "hint" phase, the smooth natural weight drop of the initial movement of the arm is lost, it seems like I'm using the wrong muscles, etc, but I'm still trying to establish if it still may be me and my years of muscle memory objecting to a new awkwardness...
I thought I would be shot down for my rigidity to pull-push. Or maybe I haven't waited long enough..😀
Once again, thanks for your input. Keep it coming.
Thanks, Phil.
Edited by PhilAsia on Monday 4th June 06:03
Edited by PhilAsia on Monday 4th June 06:05
Reg Local said:
That is very close to what I do the only difference being that on the bends where you do not need to move the pre-positioned hand again to get more lock I will move the opposite hand into position and hold rather than letting it slide quite as much. It does depend on how well I know the road or how well sighted it is as you need to be sure no more lock will be needed. I sometimes drive a car with a quick non-PAS rack though so it needs a bit more effort and it helps balance the force each hand needs to input and so improves feel.I'm a mix of fixed grip and push-pull.
My view ...
Push-pull, done properly takes less effort and moves the wheel further in a smooth motion. You can also change direction instantly without having you arms tied up in a knot. If you take pride in your driving, it also looks neater.
I can't actually think of any advantages to hand over hand over leg over arse ...
Some say, what if your skidding - well, you're probably ****** at that point anyway so just hit the brakes hard and get some speed off, because if you have to ask that question in the first place, you're clueless. Realistically, we're not rally drivers and despite what they think, few have the ability to control a car accurately sideways. Arm over arm in that situation will probably reduce the ability to make fine adjustments should you catch it. I've actually got a video somewhere of a driver controlling a 911 sideways on a track, using mostly push-pull, and at one point he is very sideways. Once or twice he uses just one arm to get a quicker response, but I don't think he crosses his arms, and his primary/ first method is push pull.
My view ...
Push-pull, done properly takes less effort and moves the wheel further in a smooth motion. You can also change direction instantly without having you arms tied up in a knot. If you take pride in your driving, it also looks neater.
I can't actually think of any advantages to hand over hand over leg over arse ...
Some say, what if your skidding - well, you're probably ****** at that point anyway so just hit the brakes hard and get some speed off, because if you have to ask that question in the first place, you're clueless. Realistically, we're not rally drivers and despite what they think, few have the ability to control a car accurately sideways. Arm over arm in that situation will probably reduce the ability to make fine adjustments should you catch it. I've actually got a video somewhere of a driver controlling a 911 sideways on a track, using mostly push-pull, and at one point he is very sideways. Once or twice he uses just one arm to get a quicker response, but I don't think he crosses his arms, and his primary/ first method is push pull.
S. Gonzales Esq. said:
There's a common issue with nomenclature here.
Fixed Grip or Fixed Input steering is where the hands (or even better, the fingertips) stay in the same position on the wheel rim through a hazard. Hands are usually at the 9 and 3 positions for balance, although I've seen it done using 10 to 2.
It's often said that no hand should pass the twelve o'clock position when using fixed grip, but assuming you're not in imminent danger of an airbag-activating collision I see no reason not to keep using it until your forearms are about to touch. If more lock is required, it's simple enough to transition it into...
Rotational steering, which is the posh name for what most people are actually doing - i.e. hand over hand. This is good for rapid steering inputs, but has a number of other disadvantages.
Pull Push is a good general-purpose technique - done well, it's smooth and can add a lot of steering quickly while maintaining access to the minor controls. Fixed-grip doesn't work as well on roundabouts for example, where you need to get to the indicators mid-hazard. However, if you're doing it wrong with a jerky action or not using large enough movements covering most of the rim, it'll become...
Shuffling or Granny Steering, which nobody wants to see.
Palming or Washing the Windows is great for parking and the like, but isn't controlled or sensitive enough for the open road.
Predictive or Pre-Positioning is a variation of fixed grip where the hands are moved before the bend so that they are at 9 and 3 mid-bend. I can't get the hang of this and don't find it useful, but others swear by it.
One hand on the top of the wheel is an excellent clue that the driver is paying no attention to the task at all, is completely ignorant of the niceties of handling a car, or (being charitable) only has one arm. There is no other excuse, and anyone doing this should just go the whole hog and adopt the...
Gangsta Lean which takes the one hand on the wheel thing and adds a slouching-low-in-the-seat posture to avoid being recognised and minimise the all too common risk of being shot by a passer by.
Very comprehensive. Fixed Grip or Fixed Input steering is where the hands (or even better, the fingertips) stay in the same position on the wheel rim through a hazard. Hands are usually at the 9 and 3 positions for balance, although I've seen it done using 10 to 2.
It's often said that no hand should pass the twelve o'clock position when using fixed grip, but assuming you're not in imminent danger of an airbag-activating collision I see no reason not to keep using it until your forearms are about to touch. If more lock is required, it's simple enough to transition it into...
Rotational steering, which is the posh name for what most people are actually doing - i.e. hand over hand. This is good for rapid steering inputs, but has a number of other disadvantages.
Pull Push is a good general-purpose technique - done well, it's smooth and can add a lot of steering quickly while maintaining access to the minor controls. Fixed-grip doesn't work as well on roundabouts for example, where you need to get to the indicators mid-hazard. However, if you're doing it wrong with a jerky action or not using large enough movements covering most of the rim, it'll become...
Shuffling or Granny Steering, which nobody wants to see.
Palming or Washing the Windows is great for parking and the like, but isn't controlled or sensitive enough for the open road.
Predictive or Pre-Positioning is a variation of fixed grip where the hands are moved before the bend so that they are at 9 and 3 mid-bend. I can't get the hang of this and don't find it useful, but others swear by it.
One hand on the top of the wheel is an excellent clue that the driver is paying no attention to the task at all, is completely ignorant of the niceties of handling a car, or (being charitable) only has one arm. There is no other excuse, and anyone doing this should just go the whole hog and adopt the...
Gangsta Lean which takes the one hand on the wheel thing and adds a slouching-low-in-the-seat posture to avoid being recognised and minimise the all too common risk of being shot by a passer by.
I must admit to on occasion "One hand on the top of the wheel", but only in reverse. 😁
Reg Local said:
Hi Reg. I have seen a number of your videos. They are excellent, informed and comprehensive - I'm sure they have contributed to a safer environment for those that have taken on board and developed those techniques shown. Keep 'em coming.
It looks as though we have very similar styles. The only area we diverge is where I take the wheel from 10 (not 9 as I stated previously as my left hand is in the way) , not 12/1 for a right turn (if there is no other road user present).
I have now given up on this push-pull thing. I am always open to new techniques, but it sounded wrong, felt wrong and is now consigned to the bin.
I have said it before. I would rather sit next an accomplished rotational (crossed arms) driver, than an underdeveloped pull-push driver. I'm sure that - if I get the opportunity - I will see the gentleman proffering the push-pull technique is extremely accomplished. However, I would be left wondering whether his steering could be improved incrementally by the same dedication and time developing a pull-push technique...
mph999 said:
I'm a mix of fixed grip and push-pull.
My view ...
Push-pull, done properly takes less effort and moves the wheel further in a smooth motion. You can also change direction instantly without having you arms tied up in a knot. If you take pride in your driving, it also looks neater.
I can't actually think of any advantages to hand over hand over leg over arse ...
Some say, what if your skidding - well, you're probably ****** at that point anyway so just hit the brakes hard and get some speed off, because if you have to ask that question in the first place, you're clueless. Realistically, we're not rally drivers and despite what they think, few have the ability to control a car accurately sideways. Arm over arm in that situation will probably reduce the ability to make fine adjustments should you catch it. I've actually got a video somewhere of a driver controlling a 911 sideways on a track, using mostly push-pull, and at one point he is very sideways. Once or twice he uses just one arm to get a quicker response, but I don't think he crosses his arms, and his primary/ first method is push pull.
I use pull-push for the track also. It only runs out of ammo for me in the situation you describe, although I haven't driven every type of vehicle.My view ...
Push-pull, done properly takes less effort and moves the wheel further in a smooth motion. You can also change direction instantly without having you arms tied up in a knot. If you take pride in your driving, it also looks neater.
I can't actually think of any advantages to hand over hand over leg over arse ...
Some say, what if your skidding - well, you're probably ****** at that point anyway so just hit the brakes hard and get some speed off, because if you have to ask that question in the first place, you're clueless. Realistically, we're not rally drivers and despite what they think, few have the ability to control a car accurately sideways. Arm over arm in that situation will probably reduce the ability to make fine adjustments should you catch it. I've actually got a video somewhere of a driver controlling a 911 sideways on a track, using mostly push-pull, and at one point he is very sideways. Once or twice he uses just one arm to get a quicker response, but I don't think he crosses his arms, and his primary/ first method is push pull.
In fact it is only a very rare occasion where pull-push is found wanting. A lack of attention in a car park is the last occasion I can recall....oh, and whooooo, ah, ummmm..., I'm not Senna moments, away from the road.
Edited by PhilAsia on Tuesday 5th June 10:14
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