How often do you mess-up?
Discussion
I'm just wondering how often people think they have cocked up? I've not done the IAM or Rospa tests, but have been interested in 'advanced driving' for some time and through taking my kids to the Under 17 CC got to understand the principles. The detail sometimes annoys me, but I like the ideas about observation and planning.
So when I'm driving and something happens that I don't expect and didn't see coming, I'm quite self-critical about it as I'd expect others interested in the subject to be.
So on the M1 this evening (and I'm on it a lot), I had moved into a gap in L2 from L3 with reasonable overspeed to the rest of the traffic in L2 when a lorry pulled into L2 in front of me and caused me to brake reasonably sharply. Nowhere near being an accident, but annoying that I hadn't anticipated the possibility. So I was cross that I had cocked-up.
So (and to the point at last), how often do you lot end up in circumstances where you feel you have not done as well as you could have...aka made a cock-up?
Just out of interest.
Bert
So when I'm driving and something happens that I don't expect and didn't see coming, I'm quite self-critical about it as I'd expect others interested in the subject to be.
So on the M1 this evening (and I'm on it a lot), I had moved into a gap in L2 from L3 with reasonable overspeed to the rest of the traffic in L2 when a lorry pulled into L2 in front of me and caused me to brake reasonably sharply. Nowhere near being an accident, but annoying that I hadn't anticipated the possibility. So I was cross that I had cocked-up.
So (and to the point at last), how often do you lot end up in circumstances where you feel you have not done as well as you could have...aka made a cock-up?
Just out of interest.
Bert
Last week on the coastal motorway in Northern Spain. Modest amount of traffic. Jose coming down the slip road just ahead and I did the (unnecessary) British polite thing, checked mirrors, saw a Range Rover (or something big and square) a couple of hundred yards astern, so signalled and started to pull over to let Jose in.
I didn't really take onboard that Pedro in the Range Rover was approaching at close to light speed, so much blaring of horns and swerving as he blasted past. I was doing 120 kph-ish and his closing speed was enormous. Why hadn't I clocked this with the mirror check? Maybe something to do with it being the left hand mirror and a vague UK expectation that something seen on that side was going slower than own car.
Shook me somewhat. Lesson:
a) Don't just glance in mirror, look long enough to properly assess speed of approaching traffic.
b) Don't be so polite about joining traffic. UK habits may not in evidence in other countries
c) In Spain, in addition to the mandatory two triangles always have spare underwear in the car
I didn't really take onboard that Pedro in the Range Rover was approaching at close to light speed, so much blaring of horns and swerving as he blasted past. I was doing 120 kph-ish and his closing speed was enormous. Why hadn't I clocked this with the mirror check? Maybe something to do with it being the left hand mirror and a vague UK expectation that something seen on that side was going slower than own car.
Shook me somewhat. Lesson:
a) Don't just glance in mirror, look long enough to properly assess speed of approaching traffic.
b) Don't be so polite about joining traffic. UK habits may not in evidence in other countries
c) In Spain, in addition to the mandatory two triangles always have spare underwear in the car
Edited by Veryoldbear on Friday 11th May 16:39
No, no, no. I am 100% self-aware!
Flumpo said:
It’s not the cock ups we are aware of that would be most interesting. It’s the ones when the driver doesn’t realise.
I dare say if we were all followed round for a day without knowing, then assessed by an expert many people would be shocked how bad their driving is.
I dare say if we were all followed round for a day without knowing, then assessed by an expert many people would be shocked how bad their driving is.
BertBert said:
No, no, no. I am 100% self-aware!
Well there has to be someone who’s perfect! Flumpo said:
It’s not the cock ups we are aware of that would be most interesting. It’s the ones when the driver doesn’t realise.
I dare say if we were all followed round for a day without knowing, then assessed by an expert many people would be shocked how bad their driving is.
I dare say if we were all followed round for a day without knowing, then assessed by an expert many people would be shocked how bad their driving is.
some random thoughts:
extra learning should increase contingency, so reduce the impact of mistakes though equally that contingency can be traded for pushing the boundaries further which can lead to bigger consequences -depends on level of risk adversion
observation is perhaps the biggest aid to avoiding issues - it is easy to spot an issue in the scene ahead and not drive into it - it takes good observation and management of the information to prevent the scene behind from driving into you...
handling skills are more sexy than observational skills, so there is perhaps less incentive to build the skills to avoid issues, hoping that instead you are building the skills to deal with the issue when it happens
we all make mistakes, AD is about managing / avoiding / reducing risk
the only way to avoid accidents / mistakes is to not drive...
AD probably makes you more self-aware, so you can end up thinking that you are worse than you are, equally AD at entry levels can give false confidence (“I have passed IAM, I am the best”) making you think that you are better than you are
ie for every outcome, there can be a matching opposite outcome - humans are very contrary
ultimately it depends on you... for me I reckon it has made a difference, no points, not caused an accident, thousands of miles of eventless driving... do I still make mistakes - of course I do!
extra learning should increase contingency, so reduce the impact of mistakes though equally that contingency can be traded for pushing the boundaries further which can lead to bigger consequences -depends on level of risk adversion
observation is perhaps the biggest aid to avoiding issues - it is easy to spot an issue in the scene ahead and not drive into it - it takes good observation and management of the information to prevent the scene behind from driving into you...
handling skills are more sexy than observational skills, so there is perhaps less incentive to build the skills to avoid issues, hoping that instead you are building the skills to deal with the issue when it happens
we all make mistakes, AD is about managing / avoiding / reducing risk
the only way to avoid accidents / mistakes is to not drive...
AD probably makes you more self-aware, so you can end up thinking that you are worse than you are, equally AD at entry levels can give false confidence (“I have passed IAM, I am the best”) making you think that you are better than you are
ie for every outcome, there can be a matching opposite outcome - humans are very contrary
ultimately it depends on you... for me I reckon it has made a difference, no points, not caused an accident, thousands of miles of eventless driving... do I still make mistakes - of course I do!
Edited by akirk on Wednesday 16th May 19:24
BertBert said:
Modesty is my only flaw!
Back to the point, I wonder how many errors I do make that I don't realise that others see!
I think you give others too much credit and most people drive around following their own version of the highway code.Back to the point, I wonder how many errors I do make that I don't realise that others see!
I'm guessing most folks here don't indicate right from the LH lane to go straight over a roundabout, so how "bad" does that look to those who do?
Driving is a mixture of following the rules as set out by the highway code, and being aware of the countless unwritten rules that many other people seem follow.
You'll never please everyone............
Flumpo said:
BertBert said:
No, no, no. I am 100% self-aware!
Well there has to be someone who’s perfect! Flumpo said:
It’s not the cock ups we are aware of that would be most interesting. It’s the ones when the driver doesn’t realise.
I dare say if we were all followed round for a day without knowing, then assessed by an expert many people would be shocked how bad their driving is.
I dare say if we were all followed round for a day without knowing, then assessed by an expert many people would be shocked how bad their driving is.
lyonspride said:
I'm guessing most folks here don't indicate right from the LH lane to go straight over a roundabout, so how "bad" does that look to those who do?
Genuinely unsure of the point you are making here..?Those that do are not following the highway code, so it doesn't really matter if it looks bad to them.
I cock up all the time. Luckily, usually when nobody else is around to see me do it.
Note that the statement in the highway code for 'intermediate' roundabout exits is "you should not normally need to signal on approach", from which it is easily inferred that there may be scenarios where a signal could be needed.
Signal to best show your intent to other drivers, ignore the idea that "don't indicate for straight on" is some kind of rule. It depends on the road layout and how your intended trajectory will appear to others, and even if your signal is "wrong", if it achieves the objective of someone joining the roundabout ahead of you understanding "that car is not coming off to the left, they are continuing past and will pass in front of me, so I should not pull out until they have done so", it's probably a good idea.
There was a clip posted on PH in another thread with a driving instructor on roundabout use. He commented that a lorry he was following indicating right on joining the roundabout - before changing to indicating left as he passed the exit preceding the one he wanted to take - shouldn't have done that. He then travelled that exact same path himself, without the right indicator. He had an idiot pull out in front of him. The lorry did not. Whether strictly "correct" or not, the lorry driver probably did the better job of showing his intent to the other drivers.
lyonspride said:
I think you give others too much credit and most people drive around following their own version of the highway code.
I'm guessing most folks here don't indicate right from the LH lane to go straight over a roundabout, so how "bad" does that look to those who do?
I sometimes do, if I believe that it will help other drivers understand my intent.I'm guessing most folks here don't indicate right from the LH lane to go straight over a roundabout, so how "bad" does that look to those who do?
Note that the statement in the highway code for 'intermediate' roundabout exits is "you should not normally need to signal on approach", from which it is easily inferred that there may be scenarios where a signal could be needed.
Signal to best show your intent to other drivers, ignore the idea that "don't indicate for straight on" is some kind of rule. It depends on the road layout and how your intended trajectory will appear to others, and even if your signal is "wrong", if it achieves the objective of someone joining the roundabout ahead of you understanding "that car is not coming off to the left, they are continuing past and will pass in front of me, so I should not pull out until they have done so", it's probably a good idea.
There was a clip posted on PH in another thread with a driving instructor on roundabout use. He commented that a lorry he was following indicating right on joining the roundabout - before changing to indicating left as he passed the exit preceding the one he wanted to take - shouldn't have done that. He then travelled that exact same path himself, without the right indicator. He had an idiot pull out in front of him. The lorry did not. Whether strictly "correct" or not, the lorry driver probably did the better job of showing his intent to the other drivers.
InitialDave said:
I cock up all the time. Luckily, usually when nobody else is around to see me do it.
Note that the statement in the highway code for 'intermediate' roundabout exits is "you should not normally need to signal on approach", from which it is easily inferred that there may be scenarios where a signal could be needed.
Signal to best show your intent to other drivers, ignore the idea that "don't indicate for straight on" is some kind of rule. It depends on the road layout and how your intended trajectory will appear to others, and even if your signal is "wrong", if it achieves the objective of someone joining the roundabout ahead of you understanding "that car is not coming off to the left, they are continuing past and will pass in front of me, so I should not pull out until they have done so", it's probably a good idea.
There was a clip posted on PH in another thread with a driving instructor on roundabout use. He commented that a lorry he was following indicating right on joining the roundabout - before changing to indicating left as he passed the exit preceding the one he wanted to take - shouldn't have done that. He then travelled that exact same path himself, without the right indicator. He had an idiot pull out in front of him. The lorry did not. Whether strictly "correct" or not, the lorry driver probably did the better job of showing his intent to the other drivers.
And that is the nub. How will my signal be interpreted?, and how could it possibly be mis-interpreted. lyonspride said:
I think you give others too much credit and most people drive around following their own version of the highway code.
I'm guessing most folks here don't indicate right from the LH lane to go straight over a roundabout, so how "bad" does that look to those who do?
I sometimes do, if I believe that it will help other drivers understand my intent.I'm guessing most folks here don't indicate right from the LH lane to go straight over a roundabout, so how "bad" does that look to those who do?
Note that the statement in the highway code for 'intermediate' roundabout exits is "you should not normally need to signal on approach", from which it is easily inferred that there may be scenarios where a signal could be needed.
Signal to best show your intent to other drivers, ignore the idea that "don't indicate for straight on" is some kind of rule. It depends on the road layout and how your intended trajectory will appear to others, and even if your signal is "wrong", if it achieves the objective of someone joining the roundabout ahead of you understanding "that car is not coming off to the left, they are continuing past and will pass in front of me, so I should not pull out until they have done so", it's probably a good idea.
There was a clip posted on PH in another thread with a driving instructor on roundabout use. He commented that a lorry he was following indicating right on joining the roundabout - before changing to indicating left as he passed the exit preceding the one he wanted to take - shouldn't have done that. He then travelled that exact same path himself, without the right indicator. He had an idiot pull out in front of him. The lorry did not. Whether strictly "correct" or not, the lorry driver probably did the better job of showing his intent to the other drivers.
It is quite satisfying when you follow someone, and their signalling is just spot-on.
Some interesting comments, apart from Bert Bert who is an awareness god, most of us sometimes may feel uncomfortable about a manoeuvre we may have carried out, and, on reflection would have maybe carried it out differently if that were it was possible to go back in time, but, we are human and on the whole learn from the experience, and try not to commit it again.
For me, making mistakes, but learning from them is all part of learning and gaining experience....better still when no one else is effected by it
I believe I am better than most at driving, but make mistakes, like mentioned above the fewer mistakes we make the less our chances are of having a "mishap", or getting nicked. Admitting one makes mistakes is on the way to becoming an "Advanced" driver, those that don't will never be a better than "average" driver.....and judging by the death/crash/injury rate on the roads we all have some way to go
I hate it when I make a mistake....especially if the wife/family have witnessed it....they tend to remind me of it!
For me, making mistakes, but learning from them is all part of learning and gaining experience....better still when no one else is effected by it
I believe I am better than most at driving, but make mistakes, like mentioned above the fewer mistakes we make the less our chances are of having a "mishap", or getting nicked. Admitting one makes mistakes is on the way to becoming an "Advanced" driver, those that don't will never be a better than "average" driver.....and judging by the death/crash/injury rate on the roads we all have some way to go
I hate it when I make a mistake....especially if the wife/family have witnessed it....they tend to remind me of it!
I have now been in the same situation twice.
What I mean is, that my driving has had an affect on somebody else, which has caused them to brake when otherwise they wouldn't have, which in turn makes a "safe" (in my mind at the time) maneuver seem less safe, and also certainly less smooth.
The first time this happened was about three years ago, and the same thing happened again today, so the penny has dropped that if I replicate the situation then it will happen again.
The situation is on an unrestricted A or B road.
There is a car (V1) progressing fairly slowly, about 40-45mph.
Following that car, and obviously not looking to overtake, is a second vehicle (V2). But the second vehicle follows fairly closely to the first.
This is the key configuration in the scenario.
Both times, there has been plenty of time to safely overtake V2, but not V2 and V1.
As I have passed V2, it takes slightly longer to pull in behind V1 because I don't want to cut up V2, so I take my time to gently filter in behind V1,
In the meantime V1 has assumed that I am attempting to overtake them and they brake....
This means that I need also to brake...and V2 needs to brake...and it takes me even longer to filter back over to the left...by which time oncoming traffic is getting much closer than it otherwise would...and V1, myself and V2 are all slowed to about 25-30mph....
Two things in my mind...firstly, did I indicate clearly when abreast with V2 that I intended to move back to the left, and therefore not to continue with a double overtake....? Honest answer...no, I was just intending on filtering back as I was always taught that it is unnecessary to signal back left after overtaking.
Secondly...if there is a miss daisy, doing 40mph on a fast A or B road, then they are probably a nervous driver, so if V2 hasn't left much space between, then it is not worth overtaking only V2...even with the most gentlest of filtering back left...because miss daisy will quite likely hit the brakes....but to only overtake V2 and V1 together when the opportunity arises....
What I mean is, that my driving has had an affect on somebody else, which has caused them to brake when otherwise they wouldn't have, which in turn makes a "safe" (in my mind at the time) maneuver seem less safe, and also certainly less smooth.
The first time this happened was about three years ago, and the same thing happened again today, so the penny has dropped that if I replicate the situation then it will happen again.
The situation is on an unrestricted A or B road.
There is a car (V1) progressing fairly slowly, about 40-45mph.
Following that car, and obviously not looking to overtake, is a second vehicle (V2). But the second vehicle follows fairly closely to the first.
This is the key configuration in the scenario.
Both times, there has been plenty of time to safely overtake V2, but not V2 and V1.
As I have passed V2, it takes slightly longer to pull in behind V1 because I don't want to cut up V2, so I take my time to gently filter in behind V1,
In the meantime V1 has assumed that I am attempting to overtake them and they brake....
This means that I need also to brake...and V2 needs to brake...and it takes me even longer to filter back over to the left...by which time oncoming traffic is getting much closer than it otherwise would...and V1, myself and V2 are all slowed to about 25-30mph....
Two things in my mind...firstly, did I indicate clearly when abreast with V2 that I intended to move back to the left, and therefore not to continue with a double overtake....? Honest answer...no, I was just intending on filtering back as I was always taught that it is unnecessary to signal back left after overtaking.
Secondly...if there is a miss daisy, doing 40mph on a fast A or B road, then they are probably a nervous driver, so if V2 hasn't left much space between, then it is not worth overtaking only V2...even with the most gentlest of filtering back left...because miss daisy will quite likely hit the brakes....but to only overtake V2 and V1 together when the opportunity arises....
Edited by courty on Saturday 26th January 19:30
Some years ago, I had an incident which wasn’t major but hit my pride (and ego) hard. I thought that all the time (and money) I had spent on driver/road safety education and training had all been wasted. But after some thought I realised that I had the ability to assess what I had done (wrong) and what I could do to reduce the potential of something happening again. This is the advantage of using AD skills to determine what one does wrong as well as what one does correctly. Training/education hadn’t been wasted and the incident was a ‘wake-up call’ for me. I used the ‘Haddon Matrix’ to assess what happened with relation to my ability, the vehicle and the environment before, during and after the incident. Then a fair bit of self-reflection. Hendon might say “Experientia Docet” (Experience is the best teacher) but only if one decides to learn from it. Each week I assess many car and truck drivers who have years of experience but are woefully inept. Most have had crashes but it’s always the other road user’s fault so they don’t accept any responsibility and don’t learn. Self-awareness is probably a better teacher.
Hi Courty,
On looking at your post, you hit the nail on the head as to a safer overtake when you mentioned that V2 was close to V1
On another day you would say
"is this overtake safe, necessary, and legal?" If it ain't all 3 it's not on
The "safe" bit was not on..... did you have the overtake under control? did you have a safe exit? What might ALL other road users do? (in this case V1 slowing), Could V2 close the gap even more? What could both drivers of V1 and V2 do?
I feel most of us don't actually look and think far enough ahead to see if we actually have somewhere to end up without causing any other road user to slow down? or change direction to avoid me?
We all have done it, we all have overtaken and then on reflection thought "That was not a proud driving moment!"
Better drivers learn from it
On looking at your post, you hit the nail on the head as to a safer overtake when you mentioned that V2 was close to V1
On another day you would say
"is this overtake safe, necessary, and legal?" If it ain't all 3 it's not on
The "safe" bit was not on..... did you have the overtake under control? did you have a safe exit? What might ALL other road users do? (in this case V1 slowing), Could V2 close the gap even more? What could both drivers of V1 and V2 do?
I feel most of us don't actually look and think far enough ahead to see if we actually have somewhere to end up without causing any other road user to slow down? or change direction to avoid me?
We all have done it, we all have overtaken and then on reflection thought "That was not a proud driving moment!"
Better drivers learn from it
yes, the issue is that V2 was not leaving a safe landing distance for an overtake. I was impatient and expected to be able to filter in anyway...but V1 then assumes I am overtaking them, sees oncoming traffic and hits the brakes. I then have the choice to accelerate and overtake V1 which is not my intention, or brake and slowly pull back in behind, with the emphasis on slowly...so neither option is ideal...
The challenge will be next time....can I adjust and improve my driving?
The challenge will be next time....can I adjust and improve my driving?
I'm always pretty nervous about overtakes into a queue of traffic as it were so I rarely do it. If there's not a clear gap to pull into I don't start the overtake. I was probably braver when I was younger with more bravado about pulling or if needed barging into a gap.
Bert
PS my thread title has been moderated!!
Bert
PS my thread title has been moderated!!
First one in years, where i did cock up,
Coming up to the A332 to the roundabout at the bottom of the DC up to the M4
This is light controlled and my lights were red
So Istopped no problem.
Changed the station on the radio , looked up and lights were green.....so i went.only to be put in my place by a VERY good driver who had the green going across me and i had 'false started' on the red, thinking the green ahead was mine!!!
I had looked ahead at the lights 'halfway; around the Roundabout
Felt a number 1 pillock
Lesson be more aware and check out all lights, AND be the second away from the lights instead.
Coming up to the A332 to the roundabout at the bottom of the DC up to the M4
This is light controlled and my lights were red
So Istopped no problem.
Changed the station on the radio , looked up and lights were green.....so i went.only to be put in my place by a VERY good driver who had the green going across me and i had 'false started' on the red, thinking the green ahead was mine!!!
I had looked ahead at the lights 'halfway; around the Roundabout
Felt a number 1 pillock
Lesson be more aware and check out all lights, AND be the second away from the lights instead.
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