An unavoidable collision?

[rainmakerraw]

A hypothetical for my learned peers and superiors, if you will. Consider the following junction, with the perspective of the photo/camera car being the direction of travel.


Link to the original image on Google Maps is here.

Lane 1 in the direction of travel is left turn only, and lane 2 is ahead or turn right only. This is instructed by paint on the road surface and made mandatory by accompanying signage. Unfortunately many people will take the (usually almost empty) lane 1 and then inevitably barge over to lane 2 to make a bit of cheap progress when it's busy.

Consider 'our chap' being in lane 2, intending to correctly travel straight on through the junction. The ATS is on red, there's a Zafira waiting behind him in lane 2, and also a blue van and black Fiesta in lane 1 to the nearside. The ATS turns green, and our chap checks mirrors & shoulders, and proceeds forwards. The black Fiesta in lane 1 accelerates hard and cuts in front of our chap, to continue ahead. Our chap had anticipated it (it's a regular occurrence here, as stated) and hadn't accelerated strongly from the lights; so no problem. Unfortunately the blue van does likewise, and tries to follow the Fiesta - who regrettably at that moment had reason to brake hard because the traffic ahead of the junction didn't move as he expected when he rushed to 'push in'. Consequently, the blue van has to brake even harder behind him (and just ahead of our chap).

As a result of this, our chap (who had considered all this in his driving plan) managed to execute a textbook 'mirrors, hard stop'. His vehicle stopped just short of hitting the rear of the blue van (who had only swerved into his braking zone a second earlier, mid-way through the junction). The guy in the Zafira behind our chap, who had just jumped the - by now red - ATS and was thus accelerating firmly to try to look like he'd 'made it'... didn't... manage to stop. Contact is made between the Zafira and the rear of our man's vehicle.

The collision occurred at approximately 5mph, and although our man's vehicle bumped forwards slightly (being on brakes and clutch at this point), he kept it under firm control and went into handbrake-neutral as the sinking realisation of what happened dawned on him.

Zafira man exists his car in the middle of the junction, but - especially being rush hour - our man shouts politely out of the window that he ought to drive out of the junction to clear it, and pull up behind him safely on the nearside ahead. Brief pleasantries and checks of occupant safety were made by both sides, and then vehicle checks revealed the following:

Zafira - cracked number plate, some paint missing on the 'point' at the front of the car (possibly pre-existing).
Our chap's car - A 1mm scuff, akin to a raised pencil line, in the unpainted black plastic at the bottom of the bumper. No other damage, parking sensors still perfect, crash structures behind the bumper and under the car all pristine. No damage. Our man's vehicle was somewhat higher than even the Zafira, and as such the impact had mostly nudged the black plastic strip sited under the bumper itself, it seemed.

The TP admitted fault, apologised, and said not to worry he's 'fully comp' with - until now - 15 years no claims bonus. His family was visibly upset (angry wife and mother in law, and a very upset little girl), so he thanked our chap for being so calm and polite. The TP's young daughter was sobbing at this point asking if daddy was going to jail(!). Photographs were taken on both sides and details exchanged. AskMID confirmed the insurance details, the car is taxed and tested and the driver's ID checked out.

Having returned home and thoroughly inspected the car, our chap is convinced and satisfied there is no damage beyond the insignificant stone chip type scuff (the word 'scuff' itself is too grandiose, even). Easily repairable to the point of invisibility on the driveway with 10 minutes and basic tools already on hand. So, on that basis he's telephoned the other bloke and confirmed all is well, and nobody need trouble their insurers or pay loaded premiums for the next five years.

An offer was made to put the TP driver through a RoSPA course at no cost, should he wish to accept it - and the offer was made in earshot of his angry wife and mother-in-law who were in the car at the time, lest it makes the offer all the harder to refuse(!).

So, to the crux of the matter. Given the situation, our chap can't really think of anything he could have done differently. He'd managed the space around the vehicle, factored in all relevant parties to his driving plan and used acceleration sense to not rush into a hazard. However, unable to control the speed and criminality of the one behind, and having no escape route due to being 'cut up' simultaneously by the one in the inner lane and the presence of oncoming traffic.

Short of making a spurious claim for seven sets of whiplash and PTSD (lol), and dragging both parties through the insurance nightmare for the next five years over literally a scratch, is there anything - specifically AD related - our man might consider or learn from? He's re-thinking and replaying it critically, but short of never having been on that road at that time he honestly can't think of anything else. Had he not been slower than usual off the lights (anticipating the cars cutting in from lane 1), and/or not performed a hard stop when it did, he'd have rear ended the blue van himself and been liable. Had he tried to avoid or brake earlier, the impact would have been bigger and/or worse than it was, potentially involving pedestrians at the junction, oncoming traffic and/or other vehicles. Doesn't stop one trying to learn from it however. That's where you come in...

I would hope it's obviously apparent that our chap wouldn't be stupid enough to post himself and in the first person, given the decision to shake hands and get on with life outwith the meddling of insurance companies.

[Toltec]

Tricky one, when three other drivers are determined to drive poorly there isn't a lot you can do, possibly using the brakes earlier and still only just enough to stop behind the van would have given the Zafira driver more warning.

Then again knowing drivers pushed in from the left I'd have been off the line quick enough so I wouldn't have been directly in front of the Zafira anyway, assuming the fiesta and van didn't crash into each other and fail to push across altogether.

[rainmakerraw]

Toltec said:

Tricky one, when three other drivers are determined to drive poorly there isn't a lot you can do, possibly using the brakes earlier and still only just enough to stop behind the van would have given the Zafira driver more warning.

Then again knowing drivers pushed in from the left I'd have been off the line quick enough so I wouldn't have been directly in front of the Zafira anyway, assuming the fiesta and van didn't crash into each other and fail to push across altogether.

Thanks for your reply. Unfortunately our man reliably informs me that he wasn't in his usual 150hp/ton FI petrol car, but rather a large >2 tonne MPV with a mere 150ps 2.0 TDCi with a torque limited first gear. Skins and rice pudding come to mind. It's fine in-gear once up to speed, but actually getting going... not so much.

[Toltec]

rainmakerraw said:

Thanks for your reply. Unfortunately our man reliably informs me that he wasn't in his usual 150hp/ton FI petrol car, but rather a large >2 tonne MPV with a mere 150ps 2.0 TDCi with a torque limited first gear. Skins and rice pudding come to mind. It's fine in-gear once up to speed, but actually getting going... not so much.

I thought that might be the case, which is why I mentioned getting the brake lights on early. It's also why I try to avoid driving slow cars, reduces the options too much.

[simoid]

My other half and father were in my car the other day, and commented how I seem to attract numpties who (inadvertently it would appear) drift across lanes on roundabouts. It did get me thinking if my anticipation of others doing it leads me to drive more cautiously, which means people are more likely to drift about in front of me (as opposed to if I was driving more ‘aggressively’ and getting alongside others at RABs).

With regards to our man here, perhaps he could’ve been more forceful with his positioning to discourage the acts of lane debauchery. If I ever have to swiftly get ahead of a vehicle away from lights, it’s handy to be a decent amount behind give way line so you can get a rolling start when the amber appears.

Not my personal approach for optimal driving, but it might’ve helped in this theoretical instance.

[rainmakerraw]

Toltec said:

I thought that might be the case, which is why I mentioned getting the brake lights on early. It's also why I try to avoid driving slow cars, reduces the options too much.

They're both valid points, thanks again. Although I went to lengths to explain everything in as detailed a manner as possible in my OP, there was in reality less than two seconds from start to finish for the whole incident. Early brake lights were regrettably not an option. At least, not any more than already deployed. It was (so I'm told) off the throttle / light brakes after being cut up by the Fiesta, then a quick mirror check and hard stop after the second offence by the blue van - who cut in much later into the junction, without warning and close in the braking zone. The Zafira behind was too occupied with running the light and only anchored up at the last moment, despite our chap's brake lights being on for a couple of seconds, ever since the Fiesta cut in. One imagines the Zafira driver was staring at the red light, and/or receiving an ear bashing from his passenger(s) for doing so with a child in the car? All speculation, but he certainly wasn't watching where he was going either way!

[rainmakerraw]

simoid said:

My other half and father were in my car the other day, and commented how I seem to attract numpties who (inadvertently it would appear) drift across lanes on roundabouts. It did get me thinking if my anticipation of others doing it leads me to drive more cautiously, which means people are more likely to drift about in front of me (as opposed to if I was driving more ‘aggressively’ and getting alongside others at RABs).

With regards to our man here, perhaps he could’ve been more forceful with his positioning to discourage the acts of lane debauchery. If I ever have to swiftly get ahead of a vehicle away from lights, it’s handy to be a decent amount behind give way line so you can get a rolling start when the amber appears.

Not my personal approach for optimal driving, but it might’ve helped in this theoretical instance.

That is certainly a valid point, actually. I've commented myself recently that it always seems to be me who has the cars cutting into lane 1, close to the off-slip to the motorway. Everyone else is nose to tail and leaves no room, but my healthier safety margin (even if somewhat below 2 seconds from repeated experiences of this) seems to invite a cheeky 'push in'. I'd be loathe to close up even further, especially in light of today's antics, but it's a very real balance of concerns for sure.

As our chap lives in the city, a surprising percentage of other drivers are away from the lights on red - let alone waiting for an amber. So that wouldn't really help in this instance. Bolder positioning may well have saved the day though, or at least helped provoke some hesitation from those in lane 1, that they may have decided not to risk it and come in behind him instead. One to ruminate over I think. After I've passed on the message of course. As was said above, this is where a more powerful car comes into its own. Neither I, nor our man, has ever had this issue in a car that leaves the others standing at the lights without even trying. C'est la vie! Cheers.

[dvenman]

simoid said:

With regards to our man here, perhaps he could’ve been more forceful with his positioning to discourage the acts of lane debauchery.

I perhaps wouldn't use the word "forceful", but a small but positive and noticeable position from lane to *towards* but not into lane 1 to show a closing space to the vehicles in lane 1 may discourage them from trying to out-accelerate you - and appearing to be drifting over may give them pause. Surprising how a lot of drivers like their space even as they take it from others.

[rainmakerraw]

dvenman said:

simoid said:

With regards to our man here, perhaps he could’ve been more forceful with his positioning to discourage the acts of lane debauchery.

I perhaps wouldn't use the word "forceful", but a small but positive and noticeable position from lane to *towards* but not into lane 1 to show a closing space to the vehicles in lane 1 may discourage them from trying to out-accelerate you - and appearing to be drifting over may give them pause. Surprising how a lot of drivers like their space even as they take it from others.

Quite. I did understand his meaning, and perhaps 'bold', 'positive' or 'assertive' positioning may be better terms. They all boil down to the same thing though so we're splitting hairs a little I think. It's certainly something our man might try next time.

[mko9]

rainmakerraw said:

Toltec said:

Tricky one, when three other drivers are determined to drive poorly there isn't a lot you can do, possibly using the brakes earlier and still only just enough to stop behind the van would have given the Zafira driver more warning.

Then again knowing drivers pushed in from the left I'd have been off the line quick enough so I wouldn't have been directly in front of the Zafira anyway, assuming the fiesta and van didn't crash into each other and fail to push across altogether.

Thanks for your reply. Unfortunately our man reliably informs me that he wasn't in his usual 150hp/ton FI petrol car, but rather a large >2 tonne MPV with a mere 150ps 2.0 TDCi with a torque limited first gear. Skins and rice pudding come to mind. It's fine in-gear once up to speed, but actually getting going... not so much.

I would agree with Toltec, too passive/defensive/inattentive off the line. I spent years driving a Land Rover Discovery 300tdi with even less power (113PS). It is understandable that one car might squirt across in front of him at that junction, but two? He is asleep at the wheel, or accelerating like a grandma.

[rainmakerraw]

mko9 said:

I would agree with Toltec, too passive/defensive/inattentive off the line. I spent years driving a Land Rover Discovery 300tdi with even less power (113PS). It is understandable that one car might squirt across in front of him at that junction, but two? He is asleep at the wheel, or accelerating like a grandma.

Did the obs and driving plan in the OP sound like he was asleep? Accelerating more slowly, admittedly (as per the OP). The car and engine are a week old, and our man was trying to balance not overly-revving the thing from cold (being diesel, brand new and torque limited in 1st gear anyway weren't helping). The Fiesta was off the line and into the junction before our chap's stop/start had even fully recovered the engine and the ruddy electric handbrake had deigned to release itself. The van then pulled away almost with our man and cut in front mid-junction.That much, as per the OP, was anticipated. Unfortunately the chap behind was only sweating about the light he was running and left our chap with nowhere to go. If this had happened in a different vehicle (as with thousands of times prior at the same junction) it wouldn't have happened. It really did, I'm told, feel like a perfect storm of poor circumstances. There's always something to learn though!

It certainly seems that the takeaway so far is to position more 'positively' and to be less defensive and more assertive in the hopes it's enough to put the other party off. Unfortunately with the way many of the drivers in Liverpool act, that always feels very much like a gamble that the other party may very well not care about losing. The percentage of unlicensed, uninsured and/or drink/drug drivers around here is appalling - and reflected in the insurance premiums, unfortunately. It's a fine line, but lessons are certainly being learnt for next time (which was, of course, the whole point of this thread). Thanks very much for your input!

[Toltec]

It seems you add further reasons why your friend could not have done anything differently.

Now the mpv is new so the rice pudding skin engine cannot be revved. I'd suggest he has bought the wrong vehicle for the job of running around Liverpool, at the very least take it out and get it run in, MPVs are going to be treated with a certain amount of distain by many drivers anyway so driving one particularly slowly in a busy city is asking for trouble. At least turn the stop start off until it is run in.

I do not believe it took just two seconds for a fiesta and a van to pass and pull in front, the Zafira had time to catch up and the lights to cycle back to red.

[rainmakerraw]

Toltec said:

It seems you add further reasons why your friend could not have done anything differently.

Now the mpv is new so the rice pudding skin engine cannot be revved. I'd suggest he has bought the wrong vehicle for the job of running around Liverpool, at the very least take it out and get it run in, MPVs are going to be treated with a certain amount of distain by many drivers anyway so driving one particularly slowly in a busy city is asking for trouble. At least turn the stop start off until it is run in.

I do not believe it took just two seconds for a fiesta and a van to pass and pull in front, the Zafira had time to catch up and the lights to cycle back to red.

You're making assumptions now. The vehicle (an S-Max, btw) isn't his, though he was driving on this particular day. It also wasn't bought for the city. It's primary purpose is as a second car to fit several children in for day trips etc, and was bought on the agreement it does the job and allows him to buy something small with a big engine for when ferrying children isn't required. He did take it out for a ten hour cross-country jaunt with the owner, to start to run it in good and properly on day one, but it's still sub 1,000 miles.

I'd said the brake lights were showing for maybe a couple of seconds from the Fiesta cutting across and braking and then the van cutting in too close and slamming on - not that the light went amber and then everything happened in two seconds. In other words, the Zafira had brake lights directly ahead for around two seconds before he even noticed and started to slow down.

A lot of things can happen in a couple of seconds, hence a lot of text for not much time in real life. Fiesta cuts in, off the throttle and covering the brake gently in case the van alongside also cuts in (and he did) - and then the brake was firmed up into a hard stop as the van had cut literally across the bows. The Zafira carried on coming. You have to remember that PH nitpicking aside, our man was hit from behind by someone who ran through a red light and then didn't brake because he wasn't looking forwards - our man doesn't need to make excuses, he just wonders how the situation may have unfolded differently with the - obviously impossible - chance to run it all again identically with hindsight.

If rush hour traffic lights at busy multi-exit junctions don't cycle red after only letting through two or three cars where you live, then I envy you. We're not so lucky and as such red light running is endemic in the city - as this incident shows only too well, unfortunately. Cheers.

[Pica-Pica]

mko9 said:

rainmakerraw said:

Toltec said:

Tricky one, when three other drivers are determined to drive poorly there isn't a lot you can do, possibly using the brakes earlier and still only just enough to stop behind the van would have given the Zafira driver more warning.

Then again knowing drivers pushed in from the left I'd have been off the line quick enough so I wouldn't have been directly in front of the Zafira anyway, assuming the fiesta and van didn't crash into each other and fail to push across altogether.

Thanks for your reply. Unfortunately our man reliably informs me that he wasn't in his usual 150hp/ton FI petrol car, but rather a large >2 tonne MPV with a mere 150ps 2.0 TDCi with a torque limited first gear. Skins and rice pudding come to mind. It's fine in-gear once up to speed, but actually getting going... not so much.

I would agree with Toltec, too passive/defensive/inattentive off the line. I spent years driving a Land Rover Discovery 300tdi with even less power (113PS). It is understandable that one car might squirt across in front of him at that junction, but two? He is asleep at the wheel, or accelerating like a grandma.

I have seen quite a few grandmas who would outdrive contributors here!

[2gins]

I have more or less exactly the same junction layout and issue on my commute home every day, the only twist being that L1 for left has a dedicated green filter. This means that I am either 1st in line when the light goes green or I'm in a slow moving line of traffic entering the junction, but in both situations the left lane will have been green already and that traffic is coming into the junction at 30 mph (+ idiot margin) braking to whatever speed they reckon they can carry round the left hander. So basically anyone doing the dirty straight over has the jump on me. What do I do?

1. keep a good eye behind in the n/s mirror. Quite often I can pick the jumper by the nature of the car they're in, although by no means a hard and fast rule.

2. Position n/s very assertively, but not over the line

3. once over the junction line, I start to move left straight away. If there's anything approaching, the n/s indicator might go on too

4. Horn - sooner rather than later. I read Reg's post about the horn a while ago, it's worth a read

5. Escape route is stop on the junction. In my case the oncoming lane ahead of my starting position is a right turn lane on red, so I have a extra degree of freedom there. I am relying on the traffic behind not freezing me out - that would really take the biscuit.

If anyone does get alongside I'm prepared to give way even if it means stopping on the junction, but I'm not going to invite them in and I will make it clear the gap they're going for is as small as possible and reducing. I kind of feel, "you've chosen the left lane, OK, you're going left, chap" - although I'm not going to have a collision over it. In the city, you leave a gap, some fool will try to fill it. So don't make it a nice comfy inviting one.

Its nice not to cause other road users to change speed or course but ultimately there's a limit to how much of other people's fkwittery I'm prepared to absorb before I let it become a "wider problem". If I've been stitched by multiple idiots its preferable the oncomers get angry with me than I have a collision. There is usually enough space to avoid a collision.

[simoid]

What’s the situation for turning right? Eg you in a lane that has traffic waiting to turn right or with a filter?

I do have a few situations not dissimilar to this regularly too. I try to also consider that, on occasion, it will be someone who is lost/unfamiliar with layout or just in a monumental hurry and so I reserve some sympathy for those nudging in. What’s the difference between total ahole or good guy on the way to see a hospitalised family member who’s in their final minutes/hours (at the extreme ends).

[Toltec]

simoid said:

What’s the situation for turning right? Eg you in a lane that has traffic waiting to turn right or with a filter?

I do have a few situations not dissimilar to this regularly too. I try to also consider that, on occasion, it will be someone who is lost/unfamiliar with layout or just in a monumental hurry and so I reserve some sympathy for those nudging in. What’s the difference between total ahole or good guy on the way to see a hospitalised family member who’s in their final minutes/hours (at the extreme ends).

I did end up doing that the other week in Newcastle, sat nav was saying turn left ahead so I in the the left lane only to find it was for a slightly earlier left turn with the right now full of stopped traffic. I ended up at the front of the left lane while on red and hopefully stuck my rhd indicator on, the lights changed and I gave the car to the right a quarter second* or so to start moving, when they didn't I did and slotted cleanly in front of them and back over to a new left lane for the turn I actually needed without them even catching up. If they had moved off smartly or there was a left only light I would have just gone left and sorted out (or let the nav) where to go next.

* I knew this wasn't London so I generously doubled the allowance.

[Track Rod]

From what you've described, I can't think of much else you could have done. As others have suggested, maybe be a bit more assertive with the traffic in lane 1, try and keep level with Mr.Fiesta following take off and hold your line, but that would leave you with more speed to brake off when he did pop in front of you. Or perhaps a quick 'don't you dare' toot on the horn, could be misinterpreted though.
As a last resort, was there space to the right to move? If there was no oncoming traffic (unlikely, I know) perhaps a quick serve to the other side of the road just to allow Mr.Zafira another couple of feet to stop? Puts you in a dodgy position though.
Nice to hear from a fellow Liverpool AD/PH chap!