Skid pans

[caterham_lad]

Evening. Does anyone know of any skid pans in Essex kr south suffolk, or north kent?

This one http://www.essexskidpan.com onky seems to be a sample donut, and this one https://www.intotheblue.co.uk/driving-experiences/... looks to be a mechanical one as opposed to a pan

This one looks good as is is a peanut so had directions changes, but quite a distance


https://drivetechltd.co.uk/637-2/

[johnao]

I've used the first two skid pan/car experiences that you mention; as well as a number of others not in your area.

They all teach basically the same thing, which is what to do if you find yourself in a low speed (no more than 30mph) skid. The essential thing is not to panic and do a few simple things like remove the cause of the skid, remove the power, steer appropriately depending upon whether it's oversteer or understeer. That's it really. The difference between the oil/water skid pan and the cradle car is feel. The skid pan is more realistic but the cradle car is more versatile.

If you're looking for car control at higher speeds that's something different. You could consider Car Limits, also at North Weald (Epping) https://www.carlimits.com/ or SpeedSkills at Hemel Hempstead http://www.speedskills.net/

Good luck.

[RobM77]

There is indeed a big difference between high and low speeds. Weight transfer effects increase dramatically as speed increases, so what can save a slide quickly at 20mph in a car, or at 30mph in a lighter vehicle like a kart (for example backing off sharply), can actually cause more problems at higher speeds, for example a car at 60mph.

[TooMany2cvs]

Viewed as an educational thing, rather than simply fun, is there any point in these days of damn-near-ubiquitous ESP?

The electronic bottom-wipers will do a much better job than you, right up until the laws of physics say "Nope, no more."

[HustleRussell]

Just wait for wet weather in Corby and get yourself up to Rockingham circuit for a trackday.

[RobM77]

TooMany2cvs said:

Viewed as an educational thing, rather than simply fun, is there any point in these days of damn-near-ubiquitous ESP?

The electronic bottom-wipers will do a much better job than you, right up until the laws of physics say "Nope, no more."

Fair point, but I'd like to mention the following two points:

1) My car, for example, will allow quite a significant degree of slip before the DSC kicks in. If a driver isn't comfortable in that situation it's best to avoid it altogether, plus it helps to know how to control a car in that situation before things go further.

2) It helps to be sensitive to where the grip is in a car and how you can influence that. This is so you can drive further below the limit and stay safe in the first place. DSC doesn't work miracles, and if you've pushed the car into a position that it really shouldn't be in, then you're more likely to have an accident than if you'd controlled the grip on all four wheels more efficiently in the first place. Most road drivers lean quite heavily on one end or one corner of a car during cornering, which isn't good for the car, the tyres or that driver's safety. A typical average driver may encounter DSC or grip issues at 40mph in a corner that a skilled driver could take in safety at 50mph - the key is of course that the skilled driver goes slower than that, but that he is ~20% safer at that chosen speed than the unskilled driver.

However, I'll state again that a skid pan will give you a very limited and perhaps misleading impression of car control - at higher speed things happen very differently.

[DocSteve]

I agree to an extent that modern stability systems provide an altogether different experience for the driver. This will go mostly unnoticed but, actually, I think it's important that those using them know how they behave rather than rely on them or be oblivious to their existence.

I have an example from a few years ago - I was driving a Golf R in torrential rain. A well sighted right hand bend I know well coupled with a car that, to be honest, was so easy to drive even in bad conditions led to a certain amount of complacency. Aquaplaning occurred and there would have been a significant accident had I lost control. The complex systems in that vehicle could do nothing but my immediate reaction was not to turn in more, brake hard or do very much at all apart from assume I'd come out of it in time. Fortunately grip returned, the wheels were not pointing in a silly direction waiting to spit me off the road and I gave myself a talking to.

So yes, stability aids help but I don't think they are a replacement for car control skills, even on the road. Skid pan training has its limitations but I don't think it is entirely redundant, as long as participants are aware of those limitations and the need to progress their training further.

[carguy143]

Remember, these systems such as traction control, ABS, stability control etc only kick in once you've messed up.

[CABC]

DocSteve said:

I have an example from a few years ago - I was driving a Golf R in torrential rain. A well sighted right hand bend I know well coupled with a car that, to be honest, was so easy to drive even in bad conditions led to a certain amount of complacency. Aquaplaning occurred and there would have been a significant accident had I lost control. The complex systems in that vehicle could do nothing but my immediate reaction was not to turn in more, brake hard or do very much at all apart from assume I'd come out of it in time. Fortunately grip returned, the wheels were not pointing in a silly direction waiting to spit me off the road and I gave myself a talking to.

you acted correctly for a car with no esc. though a possible problem is that you were on your own when grip returned as esc needs steering input in order to act. so if you're understeering and unwind the steering the system assumes you're fine, whereas more steering input tells the system to correct. it's a little odd playing with this on a skid pan and is contrary to normal skilled driving.

[DocSteve]

CABC said:

DocSteve said:

I have an example from a few years ago - I was driving a Golf R in torrential rain. A well sighted right hand bend I know well coupled with a car that, to be honest, was so easy to drive even in bad conditions led to a certain amount of complacency. Aquaplaning occurred and there would have been a significant accident had I lost control. The complex systems in that vehicle could do nothing but my immediate reaction was not to turn in more, brake hard or do very much at all apart from assume I'd come out of it in time. Fortunately grip returned, the wheels were not pointing in a silly direction waiting to spit me off the road and I gave myself a talking to.

you acted correctly for a car with no esc. though a possible problem is that you were on your own when grip returned as esc needs steering input in order to act. so if you're understeering and unwind the steering the system assumes you're fine, whereas more steering input tells the system to correct. it's a little odd playing with this on a skid pan and is contrary to normal skilled driving.

Apologies as I don't quite understand what you are saying here, but it sounds worthy of more discussion given that most road vehicles are now equipped with some sort of stability system. The example I gave was one where such systems are not able to work effectively and understanding of vehicle handling is important. If you are suggesting that applying further steering input in this situation in a car with ESC (or equivalent) would be the appropriate thing to do I am not convinced that the system would be able to overcome physics in this scenario. I agree that in many situations ESC will help deal with over/understeer but when aquaplaning the complex systems will struggle hence my example of a scenario where car handling skills are required. I'm still not saying skid pans are the solution but I don't want to agree to a motion that car control / limit handling training are of no use to a road driver.

[CABC]

DocSteve said:

Apologies as I don't quite understand what you are saying here, but it sounds worthy of more discussion given that most road vehicles are now equipped with some sort of stability system. The example I gave was one where such systems are not able to work effectively and understanding of vehicle handling is important. If you are suggesting that applying further steering input in this situation in a car with ESC (or equivalent) would be the appropriate thing to do I am not convinced that the system would be able to overcome physics in this scenario. I agree that in many situations ESC will help deal with over/understeer but when aquaplaning the complex systems will struggle hence my example of a scenario where car handling skills are required. I'm still not saying skid pans are the solution but I don't want to agree to a motion that car control / limit handling training are of no use to a road driver.

Not contradicting you. More of a sideline discussion point on esc generally, especially for low grip understeer. I think for aqua planning straightening the steering is probably best. It was on the skid pan at millbrook where I learned about esc and steering input (think of it as drive-by-wire). Quite a jolt to old school mindset. For sure, more learning and experience is best!

[BertBert]

That doesn't sound a terribly clever system then. Ie one that requires you to behave in completely the opposite fashion to 'normal'.

CABC said:

It was on the skid pan at millbrook where I learned about esc and steering input (think of it as drive-by-wire). Quite a jolt to old school mindset. For sure, more learning and experience is best!

[RobM77]

BertBert said:

That doesn't sound a terribly clever system then. Ie one that requires you to behave in completely the opposite fashion to 'normal'.

CABC said:

It was on the skid pan at millbrook where I learned about esc and steering input (think of it as drive-by-wire). Quite a jolt to old school mindset. For sure, more learning and experience is best!

What's more worrying is that once grip does return, you're in a scenario which is exacerbating the dangerous situation, not helping it, so you need the safety net for longer. For example, if you're supposed to hold positive steering angle through understeer so the system knows what you're trying to do, then once the system has reduced understeer by clever use of the brakes, when it starts to reduce its assistance to hand control back to the driver, the driver is holding a much greater level of steering angle than the turning radius of the car and mu level of the road surface can cope with, thus promoting the understeer situation to continue. This would mean that stability control would intervene more severely and for longer than if the driver was driving sympathetically, as they might drive a Caterham for example. Obviously the stability control's just saved their bacon, so I'm not saying it's a bad thing, it's just that the whole scenario would play out differently if you drove as suggested above.

I've driven lots of cars on track with and without stability control and normally drive them the same, which results in stability control delivering quite a subtle experience, such that the passenger wouldn't even notice it. You can also hold small angles of drift driving like this. Occasionally on skid pans I've pushed stability control to its limits trying to spin a car, and in that situation where you hold steering angles rather than driving sympathetically, the experience is much more obvious and violent.