The road into advanced driving
Discussion
First post here! I'm Young1 an 18 year old driver. I passed my test last October (3rd time lucky in Sidcup) and have clocked up a tiny 1000 miles. I'm very picky at myself for driving and looking at ways to improve, Reg and Roadcraft have really helped me to learn the things I would probably have never learnt, but I know I'm miles away from where I want to be in terms of driving. So 3 months in I'm looking at an IAM driving course (Orpington if anyone has been?) Am I taking too steep a learning curve here? Should I add more miles to my driving before considering it or dive in and learn advanced driving and build from the skills learnt? Sadly for me I'm the sort of person who won't deal with just adequate driving and want to improve my journeys for passengers and myself in terms of progress on the road and safety. Thoughts?
I would maybe look at the HPC young driver day, they run one most summers and it's a subsidised day where you're introduced to advanced driving and taken out for a few passenger rides/observed drives one Saturday. I went for the first time last year and have now enrolled for the full course after enjoying it an awful lot. I've done the half day with Andy (one of the instructors) and have the full 2 day course booked next month.
I'm also local (family Orpington, I'm now in Bromley) but have never looked at IAM, friends (local) have done HPC so I followed them that way.
For the sake of £30 and a night in a premier inn (Bicester unless you'd drive there and back in a day - plus all other driving) I'd highly recommend doing it this summer
worst case it's a good day out with a bunch of friendly people
I'm also local (family Orpington, I'm now in Bromley) but have never looked at IAM, friends (local) have done HPC so I followed them that way.
For the sake of £30 and a night in a premier inn (Bicester unless you'd drive there and back in a day - plus all other driving) I'd highly recommend doing it this summer
worst case it's a good day out with a bunch of friendly people I did my IAM course when I was 18, and it really does open your eyes on different things to look out for, and they tell you things you wouldn’t learn in your normal driving test. For example, when reading the road ahead, always look as far as you can see, and when approaching S bends, if you can see the road ahead is clear, they advise you to straight line them because you make more progress.
Well worth the money in my opinion and being an IAM driver does reduce insurance premiums.
Well worth the money in my opinion and being an IAM driver does reduce insurance premiums.
I admire your desire and enthusiasm to improve your driving skill and ability and wish you all the very best in your advanced driving career.
Doing the IAM, or RoSPA, basic advanced driving course would be my first step. In my view that would be the best stepping stone towards the High Performance Course (HPC). Why pay the HPC course managers a lot of money, in order to be taught the basics before they then coach you at the higher levels, when the basics can be had for next to nothing from the IAM or RoSPA? Don't forget you can always have a go at the High Performance Course next year or the year after once the basics are in place.
Having said all that I would certainly book a place on the High Performance Course Young Drivers Day on the 28th July. Details and booking can be found at http://www.high-performance-course.com/ (See the Course Home page and "click here" in the bottom left-hand corner for details of the Young Drivers Day). Having attended the Young Drivers Day you could then decide for yourself how you wish to begin your quest for improvement.
Doing the IAM, or RoSPA, basic advanced driving course would be my first step. In my view that would be the best stepping stone towards the High Performance Course (HPC). Why pay the HPC course managers a lot of money, in order to be taught the basics before they then coach you at the higher levels, when the basics can be had for next to nothing from the IAM or RoSPA? Don't forget you can always have a go at the High Performance Course next year or the year after once the basics are in place.
Having said all that I would certainly book a place on the High Performance Course Young Drivers Day on the 28th July. Details and booking can be found at http://www.high-performance-course.com/ (See the Course Home page and "click here" in the bottom left-hand corner for details of the Young Drivers Day). Having attended the Young Drivers Day you could then decide for yourself how you wish to begin your quest for improvement.
johnao said:
I admire your desire and enthusiasm to improve your driving skill and ability and wish you all the very best in your advanced driving career.
Doing the IAM, or RoSPA, basic advanced driving course would be my first step. In my view that would be the best stepping stone towards the High Performance Course (HPC). Why pay the HPC course managers a lot of money, in order to be taught the basics before they then coach you at the higher levels, when the basics can be had for next to nothing from the IAM or RoSPA? Don't forget you can always have a go at the High Performance Course next year or the year after once the basics are in place.
Having said all that I would certainly book a place on the High Performance Course Young Drivers Day on the 28th July. Details and booking can be found at http://www.high-performance-course.com/ (See the Course Home page and "click here" in the bottom left-hand corner for details of the Young Drivers Day). Having attended the Young Drivers Day you could then decide for yourself how you wish to begin your quest for improvement.
I agree.Doing the IAM, or RoSPA, basic advanced driving course would be my first step. In my view that would be the best stepping stone towards the High Performance Course (HPC). Why pay the HPC course managers a lot of money, in order to be taught the basics before they then coach you at the higher levels, when the basics can be had for next to nothing from the IAM or RoSPA? Don't forget you can always have a go at the High Performance Course next year or the year after once the basics are in place.
Having said all that I would certainly book a place on the High Performance Course Young Drivers Day on the 28th July. Details and booking can be found at http://www.high-performance-course.com/ (See the Course Home page and "click here" in the bottom left-hand corner for details of the Young Drivers Day). Having attended the Young Drivers Day you could then decide for yourself how you wish to begin your quest for improvement.
I was very lucky at 18 to have the right ‘influencer’ around. I had passed the driving test only a few weeks when I was introduced to ‘advanced driving’. My mother, in her fifties, was learning to drive with a local instructor, Tom Nicol, a canny Scot who had recently retired from the Met after many years in traffic. One morning she couldn’t make her lesson as she was sick. When Tom arrived, I offered him the money for the lesson (no mobile phones then!) and he asked what I was doing. I said I can already drive. He said, “You’ve passed a test but tha’ does ne mean ya can drive!” and took me out for an hour. Later I did another ten hours (canny Scot!) with him in my father’s new Chrysler 180 and I took the IAM and LSD (RoADA) tests soon after. We also visited the Met’s sports club at Bushey and he took me to Hendon where I met instructors and students. Tom would test me on Roadcraft (the red one with a Mk II Jag on the cover) to the point where he would stop me after I made an error, get Roadcraft out and get me to explain how I would prevent a similar error happening again. I read Tom Wisdom’s “High Performance Driving – for YOU” and “Driving Abroad” and John Miles’ “Expert Driving the Police Way” and anything else I could get my hands on.
After I saved the GBP79, BSM High Performance Course was next, after I saw an article in the Telegraph. In those days HPC had its own fleet, so I didn’t need a car. They had a Dino, 911, E-type and others. I started with a Ford Mexico (!) at Brands Hatch and a drive back to Kensington with Stuart Niland. At 18 this was a massive learning curve. I followed this with over 230 hours with Peter Currie and John Lyon. I was BSM’s best customer.
But it also helped as I joined the army, had HGV 1 by 20. Almost every leave I did a day or more on HPC, including one full week in 1975 in the MGBGTV8. Could afford it because I didn’t own a car and my dad helped by letting me use his when I was on leave. Hertz also helped, even after I put 2,000 miles on a Cortina 2.0 in four days! Also had a “job-on-the-side” bringing some ex-US soldier owned cars from Germany to be sold in the UK (very dodgy!).
So young1 – do keep at it and read everything you can on driving – not my original advice but that from the Earl of Cottenham.
Len - Sydney
Young1 said:
Thank you all. The amount of high quality knowledge on this forum is incredible! Never heard of HPC before now so I'll have a look at their young driving events and look into booking IAM.
Also, have a look at ADHub at http://www.advanceddrivinghub.com/forum/The PistonHeads advanced driving forum, together with the ADHub forum, should be able to help you with any advanced driving matters that you might wish to raise.
As a graduate of the High Performance Course I look forward to seeing you at the Young Drivers Day on the 28th July.
kiethton said:
I would maybe look at the HPC young driver day, they run one most summers and it's a subsidised day where you're introduced to advanced driving and taken out for a few passenger rides/observed drives one Saturday. I went for the first time last year and have now enrolled for the full course after enjoying it an awful lot. I've done the half day with Andy (one of the instructors) and have the full 2 day course booked next month.
I'm also local (family Orpington, I'm now in Bromley) but have never looked at IAM, friends (local) have done HPC so I followed them that way.
For the sake of £30 and a night in a premier inn (Bicester unless you'd drive there and back in a day - plus all other driving) I'd highly recommend doing it this summer worst case it's a good day out with a bunch of friendly people
Glad to hear that you are doing the course - I enjoyed driving your Exige last year, and your driving of my M5 was great - you will love the full course (as I am sure you will know from the half day you have done!)I'm also local (family Orpington, I'm now in Bromley) but have never looked at IAM, friends (local) have done HPC so I followed them that way.
For the sake of £30 and a night in a premier inn (Bicester unless you'd drive there and back in a day - plus all other driving) I'd highly recommend doing it this summer
worst case it's a good day out with a bunch of friendly people johnao said:
Young1 said:
Thank you all. The amount of high quality knowledge on this forum is incredible! Never heard of HPC before now so I'll have a look at their young driving events and look into booking IAM.
Also, have a look at ADHub at http://www.advanceddrivinghub.com/forum/The PistonHeads advanced driving forum, together with the ADHub forum, should be able to help you with any advanced driving matters that you might wish to raise.
As a graduate of the High Performance Course I look forward to seeing you at the Young Drivers Day on the 28th July.
I have started a thread here: https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
AD Hub is also good - but I have to declare my interest as I own the forum
it is the continuation of what used to be ADUK - so there is 10+ years of discussion and experience on there - and a lot of very knowledgeable people...Another local PH'er here too - hello from Bromley 
I can also highly recommend HPC. I did the young drivers day for the first time about 6 years ago which was my first experience of 'advanced driving'. I was recommended to do IAM (our local group is East Surrey, based near Godstone) which,again, was fantastic.
After this, I trained and did the HPC course in 2016.
I can also highly recommend HPC. I did the young drivers day for the first time about 6 years ago which was my first experience of 'advanced driving'. I was recommended to do IAM (our local group is East Surrey, based near Godstone) which,again, was fantastic.
After this, I trained and did the HPC course in 2016.
Hi Young1
Well done - firstly on passing your test last year and secondly on having a great attitude to your current and future driving knowledge. There is something very rewarding driving at an advanced level, having attained input from drivers who have years of training at that level, whether on the road or off road on private land. Understanding the road, the car, the mechanics, the regulations, observations and of course other drivers - their attitudes, weaknesses and limitations, makes, in some part, for an advanced driver.
A car or bike may just be transport for most people but for the majority of us on this sort of forum its more than that. Driving is a past time, a hobby, an interest, a passion - something to be proud of, to do to the best of our ability at all times.
HPC sounds well worth while for you along with any other professional training on and off road you can get. Something like https://www.carlimits.com is another one to consider where you will be taught quite advanced car control in a controlled environment (I have no financial or other interests in the company) suffice to say the more diverse experience you can get the better. By the way you write you will also thoroughly enjoy it.
The advice from the others above is all good especially Len Woodman, johnao and the others.
1000 miles is okay but the more you can get under your belt the better. There are many DVD's and books on driving - standard and Advanced. Well worth getting a few and being enlightened on a new level of driving. If your really keen theres no reason why you can't start your Advanced soon but I would suggest getting a bit more experience and vehicle knowledge first.
Knowing how a car works, engine, pistons, cams, turbo's, clutch, brakes, electrics, tyres, friction along with highway code, Roadcraft etc all helps in the development of an advanced driver whether IAM or RoSPA.
I have a couple of Youtube links I can send you, they are short, fun but highlight observation issues.
A DVD I recommend is by Mike Waite. He's an ex Police Advanced driving / riding instructor. The DVD is more for motorcycles but the techniques, advice, positioning and observations are also very valuable for car drivers.
The above advice I offer as an ex Class 1 Traffic Police Officer, Anti Terrorist / VIP Protection driver for some previous Prime Ministers / Royals and currently an IAM examiner.
If you would like the youtube links and any other advice please feel free to PM me.
Well done - firstly on passing your test last year and secondly on having a great attitude to your current and future driving knowledge. There is something very rewarding driving at an advanced level, having attained input from drivers who have years of training at that level, whether on the road or off road on private land. Understanding the road, the car, the mechanics, the regulations, observations and of course other drivers - their attitudes, weaknesses and limitations, makes, in some part, for an advanced driver.
A car or bike may just be transport for most people but for the majority of us on this sort of forum its more than that. Driving is a past time, a hobby, an interest, a passion - something to be proud of, to do to the best of our ability at all times.
HPC sounds well worth while for you along with any other professional training on and off road you can get. Something like https://www.carlimits.com is another one to consider where you will be taught quite advanced car control in a controlled environment (I have no financial or other interests in the company) suffice to say the more diverse experience you can get the better. By the way you write you will also thoroughly enjoy it.
The advice from the others above is all good especially Len Woodman, johnao and the others.
1000 miles is okay but the more you can get under your belt the better. There are many DVD's and books on driving - standard and Advanced. Well worth getting a few and being enlightened on a new level of driving. If your really keen theres no reason why you can't start your Advanced soon but I would suggest getting a bit more experience and vehicle knowledge first.
Knowing how a car works, engine, pistons, cams, turbo's, clutch, brakes, electrics, tyres, friction along with highway code, Roadcraft etc all helps in the development of an advanced driver whether IAM or RoSPA.
I have a couple of Youtube links I can send you, they are short, fun but highlight observation issues.
A DVD I recommend is by Mike Waite. He's an ex Police Advanced driving / riding instructor. The DVD is more for motorcycles but the techniques, advice, positioning and observations are also very valuable for car drivers.
The above advice I offer as an ex Class 1 Traffic Police Officer, Anti Terrorist / VIP Protection driver for some previous Prime Ministers / Royals and currently an IAM examiner.
If you would like the youtube links and any other advice please feel free to PM me.
p1esk said:
Is there any reason why others may not have the opportunity to benefit from those YouTube links? After all, we may not reach 'advanced' status, but a bit of improvement might be welcome.
I found some - https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=advan...I also use these two with my RoSPA associates - watch the first, see how much you see, then watch the second and see how much you didn't see...
1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yvj2fEIgY1Q - perceive the hazards.
2. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pY7_cH67dxM - see how you did.
You've already had some very good advice, Young1. I'd echo the sentiment of reading (and watching) all you can, and getting a few more miles under your belt to get the best out of it. That said, don't go to extremes. I tried to take up IAM when I first passed, and was told the same thing. It took 15 years and hundreds of thousands of miles before I took it up again, and in hindsight I sincerely regret not doing so much sooner. Think six to 12 months, not as many years! I'm now a RoSPA Gold and a tutor, but I always regret those missing years in my driving career and think back on all the horrendous ways my driving could have been much better.
To get you started, try Reg Local's book 'Advanced & Performance Driving' and John Lyon's 'Advanced Driving: How to Further Skill and Enjoyment in Motoring'. The old but still excellent Tom Wisdom book, High-Performance Driving for You is also well worth reading, as mentioned above - and twice on Sundays.
Most of the above are now well out of print (dating back 70+ years in the latter case!) but all are available in good condition second hand through the (non-affiliate) Amazon links I posted. The Bespoke Advanced Roadcraft and High Performance Roadcraft DVDs/BluRays are also worth a watch, as are the Chris Gilbert DVDs.
There's a lot more, and you don't need to spend a fortune (as I said, many are second hand now anyway). I was lucky to bag a 1st edition of Tom Wisdom's book for a fiver, in almost perfect condition. Just keep your eye out, don't spend too much and hammer YouTube as suggested. Our own Reg Local does a full Roadcraft series on YouTube which is absolutely excellent, and I'd watch all those long before I ever considered spending money on DVDs etc (imho) - you'll probably find you don't need to... James Ward ADT is also worth a watch, and there are simply tons of others. Hopefully others above will share their gems too. We should really have an AD YouTube thread in this section....
In closing, you've chosen a path not many do - and you are to be commended for it. You have the right attitude and are at a perfect time of life to absorb new skills quickly and efficiently, and to have a long time ahead to practice and use them. It's an enjoyable journey filled with extremely knowledgeable and friendly people, and also inevitably some dogmatic and/or not so friendly and arrogant people. Such is life. Just take what you can from every driver you meet, and use it to fit your own comfort and your own particular brand of the 'System' in your daily driving. No one person has all the answers, much less all the right ones. The trick is to take what feels right, filter the wheat from the chaff, and to have fun incorporating it all. Beware becoming an instant expert and becoming too confident... Keep your feet on the ground, keep an open mind, and keep your eyes open (and well up toward the horizon!). Cheers, and good luck.
ETA: Not to forget the ubiquitous 'bibles' of AD, 'Roadcraft'. You can buy the book here, and you can buy the DVD - which was made in the 90s but is still excellent - here.
To get you started, try Reg Local's book 'Advanced & Performance Driving' and John Lyon's 'Advanced Driving: How to Further Skill and Enjoyment in Motoring'. The old but still excellent Tom Wisdom book, High-Performance Driving for You is also well worth reading, as mentioned above - and twice on Sundays.
Most of the above are now well out of print (dating back 70+ years in the latter case!) but all are available in good condition second hand through the (non-affiliate) Amazon links I posted. The Bespoke Advanced Roadcraft and High Performance Roadcraft DVDs/BluRays are also worth a watch, as are the Chris Gilbert DVDs.
There's a lot more, and you don't need to spend a fortune (as I said, many are second hand now anyway). I was lucky to bag a 1st edition of Tom Wisdom's book for a fiver, in almost perfect condition. Just keep your eye out, don't spend too much and hammer YouTube as suggested. Our own Reg Local does a full Roadcraft series on YouTube which is absolutely excellent, and I'd watch all those long before I ever considered spending money on DVDs etc (imho) - you'll probably find you don't need to... James Ward ADT is also worth a watch, and there are simply tons of others. Hopefully others above will share their gems too. We should really have an AD YouTube thread in this section....
In closing, you've chosen a path not many do - and you are to be commended for it. You have the right attitude and are at a perfect time of life to absorb new skills quickly and efficiently, and to have a long time ahead to practice and use them. It's an enjoyable journey filled with extremely knowledgeable and friendly people, and also inevitably some dogmatic and/or not so friendly and arrogant people. Such is life. Just take what you can from every driver you meet, and use it to fit your own comfort and your own particular brand of the 'System' in your daily driving. No one person has all the answers, much less all the right ones. The trick is to take what feels right, filter the wheat from the chaff, and to have fun incorporating it all. Beware becoming an instant expert and becoming too confident... Keep your feet on the ground, keep an open mind, and keep your eyes open (and well up toward the horizon!). Cheers, and good luck.
ETA: Not to forget the ubiquitous 'bibles' of AD, 'Roadcraft'. You can buy the book here, and you can buy the DVD - which was made in the 90s but is still excellent - here.
Edited by rainmakerraw on Sunday 28th January 11:41
dvenman said:
p1esk said:
Is there any reason why others may not have the opportunity to benefit from those YouTube links? After all, we may not reach 'advanced' status, but a bit of improvement might be welcome.
I found some - https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=advan...I also use these two with my RoSPA associates - watch the first, see how much you see, then watch the second and see how much you didn't see...
1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yvj2fEIgY1Q - perceive the hazards.
2. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pY7_cH67dxM - see how you did.
p1esk said:
Is there any reason why others may not have the opportunity to benefit from those YouTube links? After all, we may not reach 'advanced' status, but a bit of improvement might be welcome.
Yes of course I can post them. They are very short and simple and each have a simple task. Most of you will probably have seen them already. Didn't want to post them, as when someone posts their result it gives the game away Just a bit of fun but can highlight a common fault we all suffer from at times.
This is the first one. Is the answer 12, 13 or 15
Best viewed in full screen.
https://youtu.be/Ahg6qcgoay4
Second one should be easier now you have the idea.
https://youtu.be/qhF_baBVIOs
And this is the last - as experts now it should be easy to answer.
https://youtu.be/ubNF9QNEQLA
Wow! I seriously didn't expect to get this response if any! Thank you all so much for the tips and advised reading/watching. I never knew roadcraft made a DVD so i'll definitely have a look at that. Seems like there are more advanced driving experiences than just ROSPA and IAM that I might try beforehand. Did anyone benefit from the non-compulsory meetings IAM (and ROSPA i assume) hold? Any advice on YouTube or this site for brief overviews into mechanical features of cars? It would be nice to know the reasons behind the mistakes I call myself out for such as jerky gear changes and dry steering, as well as having an idea to the sounds and odd features my 03 Punto makes under the hood.
Young1 said:
Wow! I seriously didn't expect to get this response if any! Thank you all so much for the tips and advised reading/watching. I never knew roadcraft made a DVD so i'll definitely have a look at that. Seems like there are more advanced driving experiences than just ROSPA and IAM that I might try beforehand. Did anyone benefit from the non-compulsory meetings IAM (and ROSPA i assume) hold? Any advice on YouTube or this site for brief overviews into mechanical features of cars? It would be nice to know the reasons behind the mistakes I call myself out for such as jerky gear changes and dry steering, as well as having an idea to the sounds and odd features my 03 Punto makes under the hood.
There's no big mystery to it. See Reg Local's YouTube series I linked in my post above (02: Changing gear - Manual transmission, and 08: Steering). Are you finding your gear changes jerky/rough going up the box (eg 2nd to 3rd) or down the box (eg 5th to 3rd)? Usually it's the latter that's more of a problem, but you can cause a rough change in either direction. Take your time, operate the pedals gently and smoothly without rushing or in any way stabbing or jabbing at them. For an upshift, smoothly ease off the throttle and depress the clutch over a second or so. Try to think of it as a lever that travels from A and through to B, rather than just being an on/off switch, which is what most drivers seem to do. Then move from your current gear and pause - well, hesitate for half a second, really - through neutral before selecting your next gear. Finally, slowly and gently re-engage the clutch and apply throttle as required. Just keep practicing, every car is slightly different. Don't go toooo slow or you may well fall out of the correct rev range for the next gear up (car and gearing depending). Reg's video will help you out.
For downshifts you'll want to rev match for smoothness and to eliminate unnecessary strain and wear on the clutch and transmission, but that's another topic and again covered on YouTube. Bonus points for double declutching and heel and toeing.
I'm not sure what someone can explain to you about dry steering. Just don't do it? Or are you calling something else 'dry steering' when it isn't? Dry steering is turning the wheel when the car isn't moving. Only turn the steering wheel when the vehicle is moving, however slowly, unless you really can't help it (eg almost blocked in at both ends with inconsiderate parking). Voila - no more dry steering.
Edited by rainmakerraw on Sunday 28th January 22:21
Young1 said:
Wow! I seriously didn't expect to get this response if any! Thank you all so much for the tips and advised reading/watching. I never knew roadcraft made a DVD so i'll definitely have a look at that. Seems like there are more advanced driving experiences than just ROSPA and IAM that I might try beforehand. Did anyone benefit from the non-compulsory meetings IAM (and ROSPA i assume) hold? Any advice on YouTube or this site for brief overviews into mechanical features of cars? It would be nice to know the reasons behind the mistakes I call myself out for such as jerky gear changes and dry steering, as well as having an idea to the sounds and odd features my 03 Punto makes under the hood.
It may be best to get back to the basics. There may be some things that weren't covered when you were preparing for the driving test. I know it's intended for 'L' drivers but I suggest looking at http://www.driving-school-beckenham.co.uk/clutch-c... who have done some good YouTube videos under the heading World Driving - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fc61Q_Z4GEs&t=...My daughter has just passed the New South Wales driving test. Here new drivers are required to do 120 hours supervised training/practice which must be logged, before they can take the test. In practice few do this and (illegally!) fudge their logbooks. And they have to be on 'Ls' for one year (then 'Ps' for three years). As I am a licenced instructor she was lucky - I gave her about 150 hours, in a manual (rare in Oz). I found that she could have passed a test after 40 hours but as she had to do all the hours we covered much, much more. This isn't the case for the majority who just make up the hours driving to the shops and back with their mums.
As a result she had no problem and would easily pass an IAM/RoADA test if we had anything like it here.
Pity you are not in Sydney. Come on PHers - with all the skills discussed someone should be near to Young1 to give them some direct help.
rainmakerraw said:
I'm literally on the other side of the country else I'd already have offered. Sorry OP.
When I was last in the UK I found as soon as I got to third gear I overshot the country......
I found out why Belgium has a 70 km/h blanket speed limit - any faster and you'd be in the Netherlands, Germany or France!
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