Right of way query
Discussion
Yesterday I had a minor accident, my first for 15 years and my second in 23 years of driving. I notified the police and my insurance company and sent dashcam footage to the latter. I thought it was fairly clear cut, but my insurance company have deemed me at fault. Can I ask for opinions please?
I was approaching a roundabout with two exits: one to the right at about 2 o clock and one to the left at 9 o' clock. It was rush hour, and there was a fair bit of traffic, but things were flowing well - all the cars in the left lane are going left and vice versa. The car directly in front of me went into the left lane without indicating and crawled up to the give way line whilst waiting for traffic on the roundabout. I indicated right and took up my slot in the right hand lane. The roundabout cleared and we entered it with me ahead (him still crawling) and I turned right to take my exit. As I passed the middle of the 10 o clock junction I indicated left and checked my mirror to start to move over. As I checked my mirror, I saw the guy from the left hand lane there, and his bumper was level with the middle of my car. That was unexpected, but nothing we couldn't deal with I thought. Seeing as I was ahead, I started to move over gently whilst still indicating, slowing, and he dropped back. Him dropping back was my signal to compete my exit of the roundabout, pull up behind another car in a queue and cancel my indicator. Then, the car from the roundabout decided he wasn't going to tuck in behind me and dived down my left hand side. I steered to the right, but couldn't avoid him fast enough as I was almost stationary. He struck my passenger door and wing mirror and sped off without stopping.
Who was at fault? The insurance company are claiming it was 100% my fault because the other car was in front of me when we both approached the roundabout. I didn't think that mattered if you pulled up alongside each other at the give way line? I won't contest their decision because, other than it being impertinent of me to do so, it's just a scratch and I daren't affect my full no claims bonus. I'd like to know though so this doesn't happen again. Thanks
I was approaching a roundabout with two exits: one to the right at about 2 o clock and one to the left at 9 o' clock. It was rush hour, and there was a fair bit of traffic, but things were flowing well - all the cars in the left lane are going left and vice versa. The car directly in front of me went into the left lane without indicating and crawled up to the give way line whilst waiting for traffic on the roundabout. I indicated right and took up my slot in the right hand lane. The roundabout cleared and we entered it with me ahead (him still crawling) and I turned right to take my exit. As I passed the middle of the 10 o clock junction I indicated left and checked my mirror to start to move over. As I checked my mirror, I saw the guy from the left hand lane there, and his bumper was level with the middle of my car. That was unexpected, but nothing we couldn't deal with I thought. Seeing as I was ahead, I started to move over gently whilst still indicating, slowing, and he dropped back. Him dropping back was my signal to compete my exit of the roundabout, pull up behind another car in a queue and cancel my indicator. Then, the car from the roundabout decided he wasn't going to tuck in behind me and dived down my left hand side. I steered to the right, but couldn't avoid him fast enough as I was almost stationary. He struck my passenger door and wing mirror and sped off without stopping.
Who was at fault? The insurance company are claiming it was 100% my fault because the other car was in front of me when we both approached the roundabout. I didn't think that mattered if you pulled up alongside each other at the give way line? I won't contest their decision because, other than it being impertinent of me to do so, it's just a scratch and I daren't affect my full no claims bonus. I'd like to know though so this doesn't happen again. Thanks
RobM77 said:
I was approaching a roundabout with two exits: one to the right at about 2 o clock and one to the left at 9 o' clock. It was rush hour, and there was a fair bit of traffic, but things were flowing well - all the cars in the left lane are going left and vice versa. The car directly in front of me went into the left lane without indicating and crawled up to the give way line whilst waiting for traffic on the roundabout. I indicated right and took up my slot in the right hand lane. The roundabout cleared and we entered it with me ahead (him still crawling) and I turned right to take my exit. As I passed the middle of the 10 o clock junction I indicated left and checked my mirror to start to move over. As I checked my mirror, I saw the guy from the left hand lane there, and his bumper was level with the middle of my car. That was unexpected, but nothing we couldn't deal with I thought. Seeing as I was ahead, I started to move over gently whilst still indicating, slowing, and he dropped back. Him dropping back was my signal to compete my exit of the roundabout, pull up behind another car in a queue and cancel my indicator. Then, the car from the roundabout decided he wasn't going to tuck in behind me and dived down my left hand side. I steered to the right, but couldn't avoid him fast enough as I was almost stationary. He struck my passenger door and wing mirror and sped off without stopping.
So the car to your left didn't take the exit you thought he would, but you continued to move left into the lane he was in, even though you knew he was there. Traffic was so heavy that you were stationary - but this other car buggered off into the distance after diving through to spear you.Let's see the dashcam video...
TooMany2cvs said:
RobM77 said:
I was approaching a roundabout with two exits: one to the right at about 2 o clock and one to the left at 9 o' clock. It was rush hour, and there was a fair bit of traffic, but things were flowing well - all the cars in the left lane are going left and vice versa. The car directly in front of me went into the left lane without indicating and crawled up to the give way line whilst waiting for traffic on the roundabout. I indicated right and took up my slot in the right hand lane. The roundabout cleared and we entered it with me ahead (him still crawling) and I turned right to take my exit. As I passed the middle of the 10 o clock junction I indicated left and checked my mirror to start to move over. As I checked my mirror, I saw the guy from the left hand lane there, and his bumper was level with the middle of my car. That was unexpected, but nothing we couldn't deal with I thought. Seeing as I was ahead, I started to move over gently whilst still indicating, slowing, and he dropped back. Him dropping back was my signal to compete my exit of the roundabout, pull up behind another car in a queue and cancel my indicator. Then, the car from the roundabout decided he wasn't going to tuck in behind me and dived down my left hand side. I steered to the right, but couldn't avoid him fast enough as I was almost stationary. He struck my passenger door and wing mirror and sped off without stopping.
So the car to your left didn't take the exit you thought he would, but you continued to move left into the lane he was in, even though you knew he was there. Traffic was so heavy that you were stationary - but this other car buggered off into the distance after diving through to spear you.Let's see the dashcam video...
I moved over because it seemed inevitable that we were both taking that exit and thought it best that we both did so and he tucked behind me, which from his speed and position it seemed that he was doing. If he was in front of me then I'd have tucked in behind him. I left him room, obviously, which is how he managed to get past me and speed away (hitting my car wasn't really necessary).
The reason I assumed he was at fault was because he came from behind and rammed me whilst I was almost stationary. Speeding off into the distance didn't help his cause either!
Edited by RobM77 on Tuesday 14th November 16:00
RobM77 said:
If I am at fault then I'm not going to post incriminating evidence on the internet! The description above is very accurate and came directly from watching the video. Equally, I'm not going to post a video of someone else driving without their permission. I'm also not a dashcam warrior and have no wish for the video to end up on someone's You Tube compilation somewhere. You'll have to just take my word for it.
I moved over because it seemed inevitable that we were both taking that exit and thought it best that we both did so and he tucked behind me, which from his speed and position it seemed that he was doing. If he was in front of me then I'd have tucked in behind him. I left him room, obviously, which is how he managed to get past me and speed away (hitting my car wasn't really necessary).
Technically you were the one changing lanes so that is probably why you are seen as at fault. Was it a double lane exit? How could the other driver squeeze past the inside and speed off if there was queuing traffic?I moved over because it seemed inevitable that we were both taking that exit and thought it best that we both did so and he tucked behind me, which from his speed and position it seemed that he was doing. If he was in front of me then I'd have tucked in behind him. I left him room, obviously, which is how he managed to get past me and speed away (hitting my car wasn't really necessary).
Toltec said:
RobM77 said:
If I am at fault then I'm not going to post incriminating evidence on the internet! The description above is very accurate and came directly from watching the video. Equally, I'm not going to post a video of someone else driving without their permission. I'm also not a dashcam warrior and have no wish for the video to end up on someone's You Tube compilation somewhere. You'll have to just take my word for it.
I moved over because it seemed inevitable that we were both taking that exit and thought it best that we both did so and he tucked behind me, which from his speed and position it seemed that he was doing. If he was in front of me then I'd have tucked in behind him. I left him room, obviously, which is how he managed to get past me and speed away (hitting my car wasn't really necessary).
Technically you were the one changing lanes so that is probably why you are seen as at fault. Was it a double lane exit? How could the other driver squeeze past the inside and speed off if there was queuing traffic?I moved over because it seemed inevitable that we were both taking that exit and thought it best that we both did so and he tucked behind me, which from his speed and position it seemed that he was doing. If he was in front of me then I'd have tucked in behind him. I left him room, obviously, which is how he managed to get past me and speed away (hitting my car wasn't really necessary).
It was a single lane exit, but wide enough for two cars.
He managed to speed off because the queue was only two or three cars waiting to join a dual carriageway from a short sliproad. Just after he hit me the queue cleared.
Edited by RobM77 on Tuesday 14th November 16:21
I'm very sorry to hear that you've had this mishap Rob, and I hope it gets sorted out without too much trouble for you. It's actually very similar to a minor bump I had about 11 years ago.
FWIW I think the response of the insurers is ridiculous. It doesn't matter who is in front as you approach the roundabout: what matters is how the drivers behave as they are entering, negotiating and leaving the roundabout.
Good luck.
FWIW I think the response of the insurers is ridiculous. It doesn't matter who is in front as you approach the roundabout: what matters is how the drivers behave as they are entering, negotiating and leaving the roundabout.
Good luck.
On approach to the roundabout, are there any signs or road markings that suggest if you take the left hand lane on approach you can use it to take the 2nd exit?
If not then feel sorry for you OP. Sounds like other driver was in the wrong lane. Surprised insurance would say you're at 100% fault to be honest if you both pulled away at the same time, but I can see their logic in that you moved over left into him when you should have checked your mirror before moving left, even if he did make a mistake.
I'd definitely be contesting it either way on account of other driver not driving the roundabout correctly for a 50/50 claim.
If not then feel sorry for you OP. Sounds like other driver was in the wrong lane. Surprised insurance would say you're at 100% fault to be honest if you both pulled away at the same time, but I can see their logic in that you moved over left into him when you should have checked your mirror before moving left, even if he did make a mistake.
I'd definitely be contesting it either way on account of other driver not driving the roundabout correctly for a 50/50 claim.
Joeguard1990 said:
On approach to the roundabout, are there any signs or road markings that suggest if you take the left hand lane on approach you can use it to take the 2nd exit?
If not then feel sorry for you OP. Sounds like other driver was in the wrong lane. Surprised insurance would say you're at 100% fault to be honest if you both pulled away at the same time, but I can see their logic in that you moved over left into him when you should have checked your mirror before moving left, even if he did make a mistake.
I'd definitely be contesting it either way on account of other driver not driving the roundabout correctly for a 50/50 claim.
Thank you. Nope, the roundabout has no markings, but it is pretty simple. I did indeed move over on him, but his decision to ram past me came when my car was almost stationary.If not then feel sorry for you OP. Sounds like other driver was in the wrong lane. Surprised insurance would say you're at 100% fault to be honest if you both pulled away at the same time, but I can see their logic in that you moved over left into him when you should have checked your mirror before moving left, even if he did make a mistake.
I'd definitely be contesting it either way on account of other driver not driving the roundabout correctly for a 50/50 claim.
I won't be taking this further with the insurer as I don't want it on my record as my fault; I'll just pay for the damage myself and move on. Of course, he may take it further if he has my details, but I doubt he does and I suspect he sees the contact as his fault, even if he does think he's entitle to turn right from the left lane without indicating.
I do a high mileage and try to be as safe as possible, so just wanted opinions in case my understanding of rights of way was wrong. My understanding was that it didn't matter what happened on approach to the roundabout; what matters is what happens on the roundabout - I was ahead, I was in the right lane and I was indicating, whereas he was in the wrong lane, not indicating and behind me. He also deliberately hit my car and drove off without stopping. That's why I thought it was clear cut, but I wanted to hear some opinions from others.
RobM77 said:
Thanks. Yes, I did the usual switch from RH lane to LH lane just after I passed the previous exit. I made my decision on the merge (which I treated as a 'zip merge' on who was on front.
It was a single lane exit, but wide enough for two cars.
He managed to speed off because the queue was only two or three cars waiting to join a dual carriageway from a short sliproad. Just after he hit me the queue cleared.
Sounds like you would have been better off if you hadn't left them enough room to do a dash up the inside. The problem is that even though they used the wrong lane you had to change lane then they decided to be even more of an idiot because you tried to be polite. It was a single lane exit, but wide enough for two cars.
He managed to speed off because the queue was only two or three cars waiting to join a dual carriageway from a short sliproad. Just after he hit me the queue cleared.
Edited by RobM77 on Tuesday 14th November 16:21
It is like an overtaking situation where the overtakee decides to be a dick and the overtaker gets the blame because they are the ones initiating the manoeuvre.
Toltec said:
RobM77 said:
Thanks. Yes, I did the usual switch from RH lane to LH lane just after I passed the previous exit. I made my decision on the merge (which I treated as a 'zip merge' on who was on front.
It was a single lane exit, but wide enough for two cars.
He managed to speed off because the queue was only two or three cars waiting to join a dual carriageway from a short sliproad. Just after he hit me the queue cleared.
Sounds like you would have been better off if you hadn't left them enough room to do a dash up the inside. The problem is that even though they used the wrong lane you had to change lane then they decided to be even more of an idiot because you tried to be polite. It was a single lane exit, but wide enough for two cars.
He managed to speed off because the queue was only two or three cars waiting to join a dual carriageway from a short sliproad. Just after he hit me the queue cleared.
Edited by RobM77 on Tuesday 14th November 16:21
It is like an overtaking situation where the overtakee decides to be a dick and the overtaker gets the blame because they are the ones initiating the manoeuvre.
Alternatively, given his lack of indication, perhaps I could have waited at the give way line to see what he did? The problem with that strategy is that well over half of the people in lane one don't indicate at all, and 99.9999% of them turn left (I've been taking this roundabout daily for 4 years).
deeen said:
Presumably the cam footage shows his number plate; the police might be interested in him leaving the scene of an accident without stopping. His fault for using the wrong lane to enter the roundabout, unless signed as acceptable, IMHO.
I notified the police and gave them the details. I'd hope they'd be interested in someone playing bumper cars too. I've saved ten minutes of footage before and five minutes after the incident to prove there was no communication or road rage between us.On a 'dead end' roundabout (that's my terminology to describe a roundabout that could be a T-junction in other circumstances) that has a two-lane approach, anybody that thinks the left lane is appropriate for turning right is a pillock. If that is acceptable practice then we can just as easily say the right hand lane is also appropriate for turning left, which it obviously isn't .
cmaguire said:
On a 'dead end' roundabout (that's my terminology to describe a roundabout that could be a T-junction in other circumstances) that has a two-lane approach, anybody that thinks the left lane is appropriate for turning right is a pillock. If that is acceptable practice then we can just as easily say the right hand lane is also appropriate for turning left, which it obviously isn't .
According to my insurance company I could do that, provided I approached the roundabout in front of the other car.Personally I think the insurance company's decision is bonkers, given that I was hit from behind by an undertaking car whilst virtually stationary! I daren't question it though.
TooMany2cvs said:
RobM77 said:
Personally I think the insurance company's decision is bonkers, given that I was hit from behind by an undertaking car whilst virtually stationary!
Or you changed lane into a car that you admit you knew was there.Your opinion is valued though, as it's presumably what the insurance company think. Obviously they could see what happened, but he was in the LH land first (cause he started there!).
Edited by RobM77 on Wednesday 15th November 08:11
Cliftonite said:
OP gets rammed by a car that is in a wrong lane
Two lane roundabout.The other car is in the LH lane.
The OP is in the RH lane, trying to change into the LH lane to take the single-lane next exit.
Whether the other car should have taken the previous exit or not is academic. They didn't. The OP was aware of their presence, but changed lane anyway. "Almost stationary" is moving.
Without seeing the video, all we can go on is what the OP is telling us, which you can bet is the best available gloss...
The insurers have seen the video.
this discussion has been had on here before, once on a roundabout a car is allowed to sit in the left lane and circle the roundabout all day...
if you wish to exit the roundabout by crossing that lane then you need to give way to what is in that lane, how they came onto the roundabout is irrelevant...
read the highway code!
so yes, I would agree with the insurance company - it is a common misunderstanding amongst drivers
if you wish to exit the roundabout by crossing that lane then you need to give way to what is in that lane, how they came onto the roundabout is irrelevant...
read the highway code!
so yes, I would agree with the insurance company - it is a common misunderstanding amongst drivers
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