Sitting close to the wheel (vs being able to "heel and toe")
Discussion
When I first decided to adopt a higher standard of driving, I moved my seat a fair bit closer to the wheel and I reduced the lean angle of the seat.
The result is a "sit up and beg" driving position that I think puts you in better control of the car, slightly improves visibility and encourages full mental engagement with the task in hand, massively more so in my opinion than the "arms length" driving position most (non-enthusiasts) use.
Aiming for smoothness and efficiency, the next logical step for me seems to be to able to blip the throttle for the next downshift during the braking phase which I gather is the point of "heel and toe".
However, I cannot physically do it using my current driving position. If I move the seat back six inches, I can angle my foot across to touch both pedals, but that puts me too far backward to feel in full control of the car.
As it stands, I think the correct distance from the wheel is more important than efficient downshifting, so I'm still blipping the slow way, coming off the brake before I can blip.
My questions are:
1. Does anyone else use this close and upright seating position? I sort of assumed all of us do this, but I don't actually know any fellow enthusiasts in the real world.
2. Did a close seating position interfere with being able to "heel and toe" for you, when you tried to learn to do it?
3. Should I just force myself to readjust to arms length driving for the sake of being able to heel and toe?
4. Is it just that you can't always heel and toe in every car because of the layout, and you shouldn't expect to be able to? I'm 6,1 and the car I'm trying to learn this in is my daily shed mk3 fiesta.
The result is a "sit up and beg" driving position that I think puts you in better control of the car, slightly improves visibility and encourages full mental engagement with the task in hand, massively more so in my opinion than the "arms length" driving position most (non-enthusiasts) use.
Aiming for smoothness and efficiency, the next logical step for me seems to be to able to blip the throttle for the next downshift during the braking phase which I gather is the point of "heel and toe".
However, I cannot physically do it using my current driving position. If I move the seat back six inches, I can angle my foot across to touch both pedals, but that puts me too far backward to feel in full control of the car.
As it stands, I think the correct distance from the wheel is more important than efficient downshifting, so I'm still blipping the slow way, coming off the brake before I can blip.
My questions are:
1. Does anyone else use this close and upright seating position? I sort of assumed all of us do this, but I don't actually know any fellow enthusiasts in the real world.
2. Did a close seating position interfere with being able to "heel and toe" for you, when you tried to learn to do it?
3. Should I just force myself to readjust to arms length driving for the sake of being able to heel and toe?
4. Is it just that you can't always heel and toe in every car because of the layout, and you shouldn't expect to be able to? I'm 6,1 and the car I'm trying to learn this in is my daily shed mk3 fiesta.
I've never felt the need to heel-and-toe so can't comment on that. But I have a very relaxed/laid-back driving position and I don't feel it takes anything away from my ability to use the controls...?
Clutch fully down = very slight bend in knee
Arms straight out = wrists touching steering wheel
I don't know why you'd want to be any closer than that.
Clutch fully down = very slight bend in knee
Arms straight out = wrists touching steering wheel
I don't know why you'd want to be any closer than that.
unless your shape or the car layout doesn't work, I suspect that you are too close to the steering wheel... being too upright can also affect how you look through the windscreen with a tendency to look underr the top edge, or downwards... meaning that you are focusing on the road immediately ahead rather than further in the distance gained by looking throuhg the upper part of the windscreen, giving you more time to anticipate and plan...
I have a laid back position, which works well for long journeys, allows me full control and to heel and toe (well, in the right cars!), I also have a different position in each of my cars - 2 seater / saloon / 4x4
as above, those are good indicators...
if you say where you live, someone may offer to meet up and go for a drive...
I have a laid back position, which works well for long journeys, allows me full control and to heel and toe (well, in the right cars!), I also have a different position in each of my cars - 2 seater / saloon / 4x4
as above, those are good indicators...
if you say where you live, someone may offer to meet up and go for a drive...
Edited by akirk on Monday 28th August 09:55
I constantly struggle with the driving position in modern cars. If I set the seat for the recommended leg position (slight bend in the knee when fully down on the clutch), I can't reach the steering wheel. Alternatively, if I set the seat close enough for the recommended arm position (small of wrist on top of wheel without lifting shoulders off the seat back), my legs can't operate the pedals because I'm too close to strain my ankles back to get my feet onto the pedals. So, I usually end up with somewhere in between these two, with the seat as close to the pedals as my ankles can stand it (bent back to the limit to operate the pedals) and in that position I can only just about reach the steering wheel, often lifting my shoulders off the seat back to steer.
Like the OP, I too find that my knees often end up jammed under the steering wheel, inhibiting my ability to heel and toe. I've also had shoulder problems from some cars without reach adjustable steering wheels - I was in pain for two weeks after driving a small Peugeot a few years ago. Being able to safely and properly control the car is my number one consideration when buying a car. So, to answer the OP, if I have to drive in that position, I won't buy/hire a car.
Like the OP, I too find that my knees often end up jammed under the steering wheel, inhibiting my ability to heel and toe. I've also had shoulder problems from some cars without reach adjustable steering wheels - I was in pain for two weeks after driving a small Peugeot a few years ago. Being able to safely and properly control the car is my number one consideration when buying a car. So, to answer the OP, if I have to drive in that position, I won't buy/hire a car.
Edited by RobM77 on Tuesday 29th August 11:54
Pica-Pica said:
Well, even if you are 'just browsing' in a car showroom, don't people always adjust seat and wheel? If there is no rake or reach adjustment, that is a reject. Where are these cars with no reach adjustment?
All the cars I've rejected on this basis have reach adjustment, but it's usually nowhere near enough. Some (like all modern Porsches), have the wheel too far away at the closest setting...Bennett, I'll confess to a career that involved more than a little driving instruction. Others will have paid for instruction and have learnt on tracks or elsewhere - I don't imagine that my opinion is any more worthy than anyone else's:
I couldn't posibly be comfortable in a sit-up close to the wheel position. I used to prefer a more upright, sit high position, to get that feeling of a better view, but the reality, for me, is that the increased view is only a tiny bit extra and doesn't really offer any greater security. You've certainly got to be comfortable to relax into your driving. That doesn't mean that your mind is relaxed, but your body is.
I find that sitting lower in the car gives a better 'seat of the pants' feel for what the car is doing when pressing-on a little. The view is forwards most of the time, so that slight reduction in height makes little or no difference to observations. I can't see that either position makes much difference to heel and toeing, in fact I'd say it's easier from a lower down position - the feet are in a more natural position to, erm, pedal!
I couldn't posibly be comfortable in a sit-up close to the wheel position. I used to prefer a more upright, sit high position, to get that feeling of a better view, but the reality, for me, is that the increased view is only a tiny bit extra and doesn't really offer any greater security. You've certainly got to be comfortable to relax into your driving. That doesn't mean that your mind is relaxed, but your body is.
I find that sitting lower in the car gives a better 'seat of the pants' feel for what the car is doing when pressing-on a little. The view is forwards most of the time, so that slight reduction in height makes little or no difference to observations. I can't see that either position makes much difference to heel and toeing, in fact I'd say it's easier from a lower down position - the feet are in a more natural position to, erm, pedal!
Sitting lower 'in' the seat as opposed to 'on' the seat will give you a far better feel for the car and its driving dynamics. More comfortable too, especially with bucket seats.
Imo the worst driving position of all is with the seat too high, the seat backrest too horizontal and 'arm straight length driving' postion requiring the need for the ridiculous 'shuffling' of the steering wheel as opposed to full on control, with two hands.
A fairly upright backrest to the seat gives arms bent sufficiently at the elbows to allow proper steering control, road or track.
The latest Porsche Spyder and gen 991 GT3 folding carbon buckets provide perhaps the best driving position depending on ones height and build.
Imo the worst driving position of all is with the seat too high, the seat backrest too horizontal and 'arm straight length driving' postion requiring the need for the ridiculous 'shuffling' of the steering wheel as opposed to full on control, with two hands.
A fairly upright backrest to the seat gives arms bent sufficiently at the elbows to allow proper steering control, road or track.
The latest Porsche Spyder and gen 991 GT3 folding carbon buckets provide perhaps the best driving position depending on ones height and build.
Bennet said:
1. Does anyone else use this close and upright seating position? I sort of assumed all of us do this, but I don't actually know any fellow enthusiasts in the real world.
Yes, but I get it through pulling the wheel out towards me as far as it will go. Seat is always at its lowest setting too.Bennet said:
2. Did a close seating position interfere with being able to "heel and toe" for you, when you tried to learn to do it?
I'm a bit taller than you, so have my knees slightly bent whenever I'm in the car. This means I use the 'side of the foot' H&T rather than the 'twist your foot the wrong way' classical H&T.Bennet said:
3. Should I just force myself to readjust to arms length driving for the sake of being able to heel and toe?
Not in my opinion. Control of the steering wheel trumps other concerns.Bennet said:
4. Is it just that you can't always heel and toe in every car because of the layout, and you shouldn't expect to be able to? I'm 6,1 and the car I'm trying to learn this in is my daily shed mk3 fiesta.
Not every car is suitable, but Fords are usually pretty good. If you have big enough feet, try the side of the foot method. Start by getting used to using the brake with the left half of your sole, and keep at it until you can brake like that under full control without thinking. Once thats's firmly established you can try to reach the gas pedal at the same time, but don't expect to get it overnight.av185 said:
Sitting lower 'in' the seat as opposed to 'on' the seat will give you a far better feel for the car and its driving dynamics. More comfortable too, especially with bucket seats.
Imo the worst driving position of all is with the seat too high, the seat backrest too horizontal and 'arm straight length driving' postion requiring the need for the ridiculous 'shuffling' of the steering wheel as opposed to full on control, with two hands.
A fairly upright backrest to the seat gives arms bent sufficiently at the elbows to allow proper steering control, road or track.
The latest Porsche Spyder and gen 991 GT3 folding carbon buckets provide perhaps the best driving position depending on ones height and build.
Too horizontal? Is that like 'a little bit pregnant'?Imo the worst driving position of all is with the seat too high, the seat backrest too horizontal and 'arm straight length driving' postion requiring the need for the ridiculous 'shuffling' of the steering wheel as opposed to full on control, with two hands.
A fairly upright backrest to the seat gives arms bent sufficiently at the elbows to allow proper steering control, road or track.
The latest Porsche Spyder and gen 991 GT3 folding carbon buckets provide perhaps the best driving position depending on ones height and build.
With your back on the seat, arms straight out, your wrists should rest on top of the wheel. There is no need to be any closer than that, save for being a differently abled person, or a racing driver.
Racing drivers sit closer for packaging, lock and response reasons. Racing cars have a comparatively large turning circle and fewer degrees of rotation lock to lock to allow for greater control, meaning less rotational effort is required to achieve the desired effect.
Optimal response is achieved by using the fewest number of muscles, closest to the source of the demand. In sitting close to the wheel in a road car vs being further back, whichever steering method you choose, due to the amount of rotation lock to lock, you'll find yourself engaging your shoulders more due to decreasing the distance you have for the arms to twist as you rotate the wheel. As a tall person, I know this very well from needing to move my seat forwards to let people in behind me. The extra muscular demand might be a technical counter to your argument for being closer.
With regards to heel and toe, it's something I use daily for smoothness, although in applying "The system" from either IAM or ROSPA, there is never a need to. Not H&T-ing it slows you down due to separating out the braking and gear change phases, and so far as safe driving is concerned, the slower something happens, the better. It's also something that can be somewhat perilous to learn and a bit more difficult to teach compared with simply reinforcing discipline.
I'm a big advocate of heel and toe despite this, for smoothness and control. You're reducing the instances of input, and since any input from you destabilises the present condition of the car, the fewer times you individually input (and the shorter the duration of that input), the better. It also means that as soon as you come off the brake, you're in a position to open the throttle and therefore retain the most control possible.
....But again... on the road it is almost never necessary, just nice.
When driving the TVR however, it can become necessary certainly with regards to maximising enjoyment, but that's a set of conditions I have created rather than something I'm required to anticipate and respond to as in normal driving. In the strict sense of the IAM/ROSPA systems of driving which advise against employing sudden or overzealous acceleration, hanging on to gears and braking erm... later...
.... it's practically impossible to be obedient to those systems completely if you intend to explore some of such a car's capabilities every now and then. Notice I say "Some", as taking that thing to its limit on a public road is not practical or possible.
Racing drivers sit closer for packaging, lock and response reasons. Racing cars have a comparatively large turning circle and fewer degrees of rotation lock to lock to allow for greater control, meaning less rotational effort is required to achieve the desired effect.
Optimal response is achieved by using the fewest number of muscles, closest to the source of the demand. In sitting close to the wheel in a road car vs being further back, whichever steering method you choose, due to the amount of rotation lock to lock, you'll find yourself engaging your shoulders more due to decreasing the distance you have for the arms to twist as you rotate the wheel. As a tall person, I know this very well from needing to move my seat forwards to let people in behind me. The extra muscular demand might be a technical counter to your argument for being closer.
With regards to heel and toe, it's something I use daily for smoothness, although in applying "The system" from either IAM or ROSPA, there is never a need to. Not H&T-ing it slows you down due to separating out the braking and gear change phases, and so far as safe driving is concerned, the slower something happens, the better. It's also something that can be somewhat perilous to learn and a bit more difficult to teach compared with simply reinforcing discipline.
I'm a big advocate of heel and toe despite this, for smoothness and control. You're reducing the instances of input, and since any input from you destabilises the present condition of the car, the fewer times you individually input (and the shorter the duration of that input), the better. It also means that as soon as you come off the brake, you're in a position to open the throttle and therefore retain the most control possible.
....But again... on the road it is almost never necessary, just nice.
When driving the TVR however, it can become necessary certainly with regards to maximising enjoyment, but that's a set of conditions I have created rather than something I'm required to anticipate and respond to as in normal driving. In the strict sense of the IAM/ROSPA systems of driving which advise against employing sudden or overzealous acceleration, hanging on to gears and braking erm... later...
.... it's practically impossible to be obedient to those systems completely if you intend to explore some of such a car's capabilities every now and then. Notice I say "Some", as taking that thing to its limit on a public road is not practical or possible.NuddyRap said:
With your back on the seat, arms straight out, your wrists should rest on top of the wheel. There is no need to be any closer than that, save for being a differently abled person, or a racing driver.
The problem I get is when I do that in most cars, with the steering wheel fully extended out, my legs are so bent that my knees are touching the indicator stalks and I can't flex my ankle back far enough to get onto any of the pedals! I have no choice but to drop the seat back so I can operate the pedals properly, which means I can't steer properly 
I should also mention that there's another reason racing drivers sit close to the wheel: most racing cars don't have power steering and with slick tyres and downforce, steering weight can be quite high. Sitting close allows more leverage whilst still using muscles that are appropriate for fine control.
Edited by RobM77 on Thursday 14th September 10:43
sgtBerbatov said:
I thought you should always be arms length away from the steering wheel, so that in the event of an accident you don't get killed by the air bag deploying?
No doubt there's a balance between shoulder problems (which I've had driving a few superminis) and safe steering and the dangers in an accident. I've often wondered if the modern trend for putting steering wheels so far away is safety in an accident. Almost all modern cars put the wheel too far away from me, but older cars are usually fine.RobM77 said:
The problem I get is when I do that in most cars, with the steering wheel fully extended out, my legs are so bent that my knees are touching the indicator stalks and I can't flex my ankle back far enough to get onto any of the pedals! I have no choice but to drop the seat back so I can operate the pedals properly, which means I can't steer properly
I should also mention that there's another reason racing drivers sit close to the wheel: most racing cars don't have power steering and with slick tyres and downforce, steering weight can be quite high. Sitting close allows more leverage whilst still using muscles that are appropriate for fine control.
Do you have disproportionately long legs or short arms? I can't think of a car I've owned in the last couple of decades in which achieving a good driving position was difficult. The least good is our Polo. That feels a bit like driving a small van.I should also mention that there's another reason racing drivers sit close to the wheel: most racing cars don't have power steering and with slick tyres and downforce, steering weight can be quite high. Sitting close allows more leverage whilst still using muscles that are appropriate for fine control.
Edited by RobM77 on Thursday 14th September 10:43
Zod said:
RobM77 said:
The problem I get is when I do that in most cars, with the steering wheel fully extended out, my legs are so bent that my knees are touching the indicator stalks and I can't flex my ankle back far enough to get onto any of the pedals! I have no choice but to drop the seat back so I can operate the pedals properly, which means I can't steer properly
I should also mention that there's another reason racing drivers sit close to the wheel: most racing cars don't have power steering and with slick tyres and downforce, steering weight can be quite high. Sitting close allows more leverage whilst still using muscles that are appropriate for fine control.
Do you have disproportionately long legs or short arms? I can't think of a car I've owned in the last couple of decades in which achieving a good driving position was difficult. The least good is our Polo. That feels a bit like driving a small van.I should also mention that there's another reason racing drivers sit close to the wheel: most racing cars don't have power steering and with slick tyres and downforce, steering weight can be quite high. Sitting close allows more leverage whilst still using muscles that are appropriate for fine control.
Edited by RobM77 on Thursday 14th September 10:43
RobM77 said:
No doubt there's a balance between shoulder problems (which I've had driving a few superminis) and safe steering and the dangers in an accident. I've often wondered if the modern trend for putting steering wheels so far away is safety in an accident. Almost all modern cars put the wheel too far away from me, but older cars are usually fine.
I think it is. There have been instances where drivers have been killed in survivable accidents due to the airbag deploying. The science goes that if you sit arms length away from the wheel, during the impact your head is forced forward and will hit the steering wheel. The airbag deploys quite violently (it's an explosive really, breaking through plastics and some metal) and inflates at the same time. The story is that if you sit really close to the steering wheel, the time your head takes to hit the wheel is reduced, meaning you could be susceptible to encountering some of the explosive energy and/or shrapnel from the airbag. It worries me sometimes when I drive and I see drivers practically leaning their whole body on the steering wheel while driving. If they were in an accident and an airbag deployed they'd be killed outright.
sgtBerbatov said:
RobM77 said:
No doubt there's a balance between shoulder problems (which I've had driving a few superminis) and safe steering and the dangers in an accident. I've often wondered if the modern trend for putting steering wheels so far away is safety in an accident. Almost all modern cars put the wheel too far away from me, but older cars are usually fine.
I think it is. There have been instances where drivers have been killed in survivable accidents due to the airbag deploying. The science goes that if you sit arms length away from the wheel, during the impact your head is forced forward and will hit the steering wheel. The airbag deploys quite violently (it's an explosive really, breaking through plastics and some metal) and inflates at the same time. The story is that if you sit really close to the steering wheel, the time your head takes to hit the wheel is reduced, meaning you could be susceptible to encountering some of the explosive energy and/or shrapnel from the airbag. It worries me sometimes when I drive and I see drivers practically leaning their whole body on the steering wheel while driving. If they were in an accident and an airbag deployed they'd be killed outright.
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