Aborted overtakes

[Solocle]

Just wondering opinion about aborting overtakes. I.e, a car pulls offside, begins an overtake, then oncoming vehicle appears from around a corner and they return to following position. Of course, if you've begun an overtake and it's clearly unsafe to continue you must abort, but should you initiate such an overtake in the first place? Bearing in mind that if a vehicle doesn't appear for a few seconds, the overtake can be safely completed, and if in those few seconds a vehicle appears it can be aborted.
Also, for this scenario, we have no additional hazard such as vehicle behind that may move up and close the abort gap, or a vehicle in front that may slow considerably for the corner and close the return gap.

Asking because I attempted such an overtake a few minutes ago, and did abort with no issues. Stretch of road I drive twice daily, vehicle ahead was doing 40 (did slow down for 30s though!). When you first get view of the full stretch, you could easily overtake, but two oncoming vehicles meant that the earliest point to overtake was somewhat delayed. Hence this scenario.

So, is this kind of overtake allowable, given that although it's safe, if you have to abort you can look a bit psycho?

[vonhosen]

Solocle said:

Just wondering opinion about aborting overtakes. I.e, a car pulls offside, begins an overtake, then oncoming vehicle appears from around a corner and they return to following position. Of course, if you've begun an overtake and it's clearly unsafe to continue you must abort, but should you initiate such an overtake in the first place? Bearing in mind that if a vehicle doesn't appear for a few seconds, the overtake can be safely completed, and if in those few seconds a vehicle appears it can be aborted.
Also, for this scenario, we have no additional hazard such as vehicle behind that may move up and close the abort gap, or a vehicle in front that may slow considerably for the corner and close the return gap.

Asking because I attempted such an overtake a few minutes ago, and did abort with no issues. Stretch of road I drive twice daily, vehicle ahead was doing 40 (did slow down for 30s though!). When you first get view of the full stretch, you could easily overtake, but two oncoming vehicles meant that the earliest point to overtake was somewhat delayed. Hence this scenario.

So, is this kind of overtake allowable, given that although it's safe, if you have to abort you can look a bit psycho?

I'd personally regard it as a mistake.
A part of my planning for the overtake is that if I'm going to go it should still be safe to complete even if a vehicle appears towards.
Once you've committed alongside, if you want to return behind the intended overtake you're left hoping they don't brake when you do to return.

[lucido grigio]

Solocle said:

, then oncoming vehicle appears from around a corner

These appear to be the most important part.

Don't overtake approaching a corner, especially as you drive it twice a day and should be familiar with this road.

[Solocle]

lucido grigio said:

These appear to be the most important part.

Don't overtake approaching a corner, especially as you drive it twice a day and should be familiar with this road.

It has to be said, the corner was a reasonable distance away. How far does a corner have to be away before you overtake?
I tend to judge by whether I can pull off an overtake (and normally, I don't do it unless I feel I can definitely pull it off, but if aan oncoming vehicle is faster than expected, you end up in this region).
For context, this is the stretch, roughly where I pulled offside. Because I drive a Citigo, braking back takes much less time than accelerating through, so that's a factor.

[TurboHatchback]

I would regard any overtake where you cannot see that the whole distance required will remain clear (not the same as 'is clear now') as dangerous and highly irresponsible. This obviously has to be based on an assumed limit on the speed of cars appearing the other way, if someone is doing 200mph in the other direction you cannot reasonably forsee that but you should always assume that someone will appear travelling at least at the speed limit at the moment you commit and leave plenty of space for this. I have never aborted an overtake and you should never need to if they are correctly judged in the first place.

[Solocle]

TurboHatchback said:

I would regard any overtake where you cannot see that the whole distance required will remain clear (not the same as 'is clear now') as dangerous and highly irresponsible. This obviously has to be based on an assumed limit on the speed of cars appearing the other way, if someone is doing 200mph in the other direction you cannot reasonably forsee that but you should always assume that someone will appear travelling at least at the speed limit at the moment you commit and leave plenty of space for this. I have never aborted an overtake and you should never need to if they are correctly judged in the first place.

In this particular case, I probably could have pulled the overtake off, but it would have been too close for comfort (that or the oncoming vehicle slowing down). Needless when I was still pulling out and could just brake and slip back in. Also, if I'd judged that would be the case I wouldn't have pulled out, so minor misjudgement on my part. Nowhere near causing an accident, and I'm definitely intending on keeping this abort zone as an error margin. Just wondering the prevailing opinion. I can count the number of aborts I've done on one hand, and always treat them as learning experiences.

[dvenman]

A useful way to work out how much space you need is to first of all work out how much time you need to overtake at, say, 60mph.

If it takes 4 seconds, then you need 8 seconds of clear road in which to overtake safely.

Every time you don't take an overtake because of an oncoming vehicle or a hazard which defines the clear distance available, count until the oncoming car passes the car in front, or until the hazard arrives.

That way you'll build up distance/time/speed judgement in a safe way.

The other way to do this safely is on a dual carriageway - "overtake" a vehicle in front and use a vehicle on the opposing carriageway as the oncomer.

[Solocle]

dvenman said:

A useful way to work out how much space you need is to first of all work out how much time you need to overtake at, say, 60mph.

If it takes 4 seconds, then you need 8 seconds of clear road in which to overtake safely.

Every time you don't take an overtake because of an oncoming vehicle or a hazard which defines the clear distance available, count until the oncoming car passes the car in front, or until the hazard arrives.

That way you'll build up distance/time/speed judgement in a safe way.

The other way to do this safely is on a dual carriageway - "overtake" a vehicle in front and use a vehicle on the opposing carriageway as the oncomer.

I generally judge it fairly well now, and as mentioned, the aborts get considered. I was pushing my luck slightly today - an oncoming vehicle appeared as soon as I pulled out, so, knowing I was pushing the boundaries slightly, I wasn't going to follow through. It wouldn't have caused a collision ( the oncoming vehicle would have had to be psychotic), but the on-comer may have had to brake. Just wasn't worth it, and reinforces my previous policy of "don't overtake on that stretch unless you an see that it's clear as soon as you enter the zone of visibility (a sweeping bend just before the straight)". Then, when on unfamiliar roads, I'm less familiar, so I can observe potential hazards and compare to my experience with the local straights. E.g. there's a stretch that's well sighted (but I've never overtaken on) that I had considered earlier, but decided against. There was an oncomer, but the other hazard that was prohibitive was a vehicle on an offside farm entrance preparing to turn left.

Unfortunately, the dual carriageway approach is unlikely to work for me. The speed of the overtakee is a huge factor in my car, and it's rare to encounter a 40 dawdler (it does happen, but very rare). I'm normally anticipating coming up behind slow cars well in advance, so I don't tend to be speed matching them. I will see what I can get from doing so, but I doubt I'll get that much information. Incidents like today's are somewhat embarrassing, as I'm very aware of looking like a royal twunt. Furthermore, I didn't have my trademark overtaking manoeuvrer available, which is accelerating towards the overtakee before the straight. I'd already begun doing that and had to brake because of the oncoming vehicles. So when I could see that the straight was clear, I was in following position, rather than having dropped back an built up some speed already. That speed makes a huge difference with limited acceleration.

[Solocle]

So far: resoundingly don't begin such a manoeuvrer [intentionally].

Looking back at this particular case, a few reasons why it happened:

• Oncoming vehicle happened to appear as soon as the manoeuvrer began
• I didn't have the whole stretch available for overtaking
• I didn't have any speed relative to the overtakee when I began the manoeuvrer

Yep, not ideal manoeuvrer at all. Good experience of what not to do.
Still, pretty happy that, given the above, it was always going to be safe to either abort or complete. It shows that when I do consider the above factors, I should have time to complete the manoeuvrer with a margin of error.
New overtaking checklist:

• Before straight:

* Do I gain a potential advantage? How significant?
* Is it legal?

• Approaching straight:

* Drop back
* Begin building up speed
* Don't get too close to the other vehicle - consider that the relative speed needs to be killed as well as braking distance

• On straight:

* Analyse hazards - oncoming vehicle? Side turnings? Other?
* Pull out or brake

• Unfamiliar road:

* No previous acceleration due to the nature of unfamiliarity - consider
* Extra careful looking for unseen hazards from unfamiliar road layout

• If an overtake is not immediately possible:

* Consider the distance remaining
* Consider the lack of relative velocity
Fortunately, most of that is common sense.

[Rick101]

It's a difficult one.

Personally, I'd add a supercharger.

I tend to err on the side of caution. Patience and the opportunity will arise.

[Solocle]

Rick101 said:

It's a difficult one.

Personally, I'd add a supercharger.

I tend to err on the side of caution. Patience and the opportunity will arise.

Alas, most of the overtakes I've done are on my daily school runs (well, former school runs). 2 straights where I can overtake (unless it's a tractor). Shaves a few minutes off my travel time if it's 60 vs 40, but mostly I overtake because a well executed overtake in a little car is a good feeling. There's also some lights later on, so it's a bit of a lottery of whether the advantage is amplified or mitigated. I'm certainly fairly risk adverse though.

Edited by Solocle on Friday 30th June 17:40

[Green1man]

In 30 years of driving I've only been caught out like this twice when as you say someone appears at just the wrong moment and you realise you've misjudged slightly. What I have done somewhat more often though is abort the overtake in the acceleration phase before pulling alongside the car in front. Obviously the OP scenario is something to avoid as it will tend to spook the car you are overtaking and you can't really guarantee what action they might take (swerve, brake etc).

[Solocle]

Green1man said:

In 30 years of driving I've only been caught out like this twice when as you say someone appears at just the wrong moment and you realise you've misjudged slightly. What I have done somewhat more often though is abort the overtake in the acceleration phase before pulling alongside the car in front. Obviously the OP scenario is something to avoid as it will tend to spook the car you are overtaking and you can't really guarantee what action they might take (swerve, brake etc).

Yes, a fair few times I've aborted the acceleration phase, it's really insignificant unless you're doing that phase wrong. Needless to say, I'm going to be making the most mistakes like this early on, as when I do make a mistake I learn from it (I sincerely hope so, anyway!). This sort of mistake is really just a matter of getting a feel for the cars abilities. So, in the future when I have a more capable car, I'm probably going to be overtaking like I have 60 bhp!

[Reg Local]

Remember that you make your driving plans (not just for overtakes, but for any hazard) based on three things:

What you can see
What you can't see and
What you can reasonably expect to happen

So if you're planning an overtake & there is nothing oncoming, you can see there is nothing oncoming, and you can also see the limit of your vision (the next corner or crest).

You can't, however, see what is beyond your limit of vision, and as such:

You can reasonably expect there to be an oncoming vehicle, just beyond your limit of vision, possibly travelling at high speed.

I would suggest you just need to use your imagination a little more in the planning phase. This incident will add to your bank of experience and help you to judge more carefully what is out of sight and what you could expect to happen.

You can't learn without making mistakes, so as long as no-one was hurt and nothing was dented, it'll make you a better driver.

[akirk]

I like overtaking with an oncoming vehicle - at that point you have removed the surprise element and you either know that the overtake is safe or not - if it is, then take it and you have the safe knowledge that nothing super-fast is coming around the corner...

when there is no oncoming vehicle you have to consider that something might come - and it could be a bike doing 90 - not just an old lady doing 30 - so you need contingency over and beyond the time for you to pass and someone at your speed to come your way...

the overtaking move - you mention not having extra speed - be cautious that is a way of thinking that can be dangerous - when a driver only starts an overtake with superior speed it means that they have committed to the overtake from behind the other car and have reduced the opportunity to cancel - a banana shaped overtake results...

instead when ready to overtake - you move out to check - at that point you have made a neutral move laterally - still sitting at the same speed as the car in front (no superior speed) but giving yourself a good view - you can abort without fuss by just moving back and because you haven't over-accelerated to move back you are already parallel to the space you need - or you can choose to go. At that point you accelerate from the position hanging out and your overtake is shorter (starting already from the other side) plus you can get back in faster - a safer overtake...

if your car doesn't have the power to accelerate from that position (i.e. you need a run up), or the overall speed of car in front makes it difficult - then you do not have a safe overtake, so stay back...

so a number of issues in what you describe:
- not sufficient length to overtake
- method of overtake

[johnao]

vonhosen said:

I'd personally regard it as a mistake.
A part of my planning for the overtake is that if I'm going to go it should still be safe to complete even if a vehicle appears towards.
Once you've committed alongside, if you want to return behind the intended overtake you're left hoping they don't brake when you do to return.

When planning, and then committing to, any overtake:

You must be able to complete the overtake in less than half the distance seen to be clear.


This rule applies whatever the distance seen to be clear, however far or close the limit point.

[vonhosen]

johnao said:

vonhosen said:

I'd personally regard it as a mistake.
A part of my planning for the overtake is that if I'm going to go it should still be safe to complete even if a vehicle appears towards.
Once you've committed alongside, if you want to return behind the intended overtake you're left hoping they don't brake when you do to return.

When planning, and then committing to, any overtake:

You must be able to complete the overtake in less than half the distance seen to be clear.


This rule applies whatever the distance seen to be clear, however far or close the limit point.

I disagree.

There are circumstances where you can safely go past 50% visible distance.
For instance if you are approaching a ninety degree right hand bend ahead a vehicle towards will be travelling considerably slower than you with your overtake speed. In those circumstances you could safely use 51% of the visible space.

You need to consider the potential speed of an as yet unseen vehicle towards, but that doesn't result in a 'YOU MUST' complete the overtake in less than half the visible distance (although that may often be the case because of the potential speed of vehicles towards because of the topography).

[Dr Jekyll]

akirk said:

I like overtaking with an oncoming vehicle - at that point you have removed the surprise element and you either know that the overtake is safe or not - if it is, then take it and you have the safe knowledge that nothing super-fast is coming around the corner...

I take your point. But you then need to be sure nobody is hidden behind the approaching vehicle and about to overtake.

[angels95]

TurboHatchback said:

I would regard any overtake where you cannot see that the whole distance required will remain clear (not the same as 'is clear now') as dangerous and highly irresponsible.

Exactly this. Shortly after I passed my test I did similar, and thankfully was able to pull back in behind the car I was trying to overtake safely. But since then I have never committed to an overtake unless 100% certain that the manoeuvre can be completed successfully. Just common sense really.

[akirk]

Dr Jekyll said:

akirk said:

I like overtaking with an oncoming vehicle - at that point you have removed the surprise element and you either know that the overtake is safe or not - if it is, then take it and you have the safe knowledge that nothing super-fast is coming around the corner...

I take your point. But you then need to be sure nobody is hidden behind the approaching vehicle and about to overtake.

unlikely when coming off a corner v. me on an established straight...
and if they do then they and I will be on opposite sides of the roads
apart from anything else - even if they are planning on overtaking I know that they will be starting from the speed of the vehicle I can see, so i still have an advantage in knowing what will be happening.