Smart Motorway - I'm Confused...

[dr_gn]

My commute is several miles of M1 (J35 - 31) and back. Today I had to extend the return to J37.

From what I've read on the gov. Website, if a gantry shows a limit (eg 60), then from that gantry onwards it's a 60 limit until another limit, or the national speed limit sign appears on a subsequent gantry.

Today, there was 40 limit and the inner lane closed due to a broken down car. There're were no subsequent gantry signs illuminated for the remainder of the smart motorway several junctions further north. Sometimes there is a n.s.l. Sign after a limit, sometimes not.

Some drivers were doing 70+ In the closed lane Immediately after (and in some cases before) the obstruction was passed, despite no further instruction to negate the lower limit, or indicate the blocked lane was open. Others were doing 40.

Apparently people joining at subsequent junctions didn't have a limit or lane block imposed, but I was still doing 40 for a mile or so before giving up and going with the flow, mainly for safety reasons. Some did likewise, some didn't.

It's totally inconsistent - at first I thought it was due to comissioning the system, but apparently not.

What's correct?

[Reg Local]

As per the gov.uk website:

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/how-to-drive-on-a-smar...

Under "speed limits" it states if no special speed limit is displayed then the national speed limit applies.

So, it seems there is no requirement for a "resumption of the national speed limit" sign after a restricted speed limit. If the next gantry does not display a red-ringed speed limit,, then the national limit applies.

[dvenman]

Reg Local said:

So, it seems there is no requirement for a "resumption of the national speed limit" sign after a restricted speed limit

That'll be interesting the first time someone takes a ticket for that to court... In all other circumstances a change of speed limit needs a sign to that effect, and this would appear to break that rule. The only bit of smart motorway I've travelled recently is the M4 from J19 towards the Severn bridge, and I seem to recall the speed limit was repeated on each gantry, and displayed an NSL just after the M4 /M5 junction on my way to the Severn Bridge.

[dr_gn]

Yes, I saw the "if nothing displayed..." bit, but then why have the national limit sign displayed at all (which sometimes happens, sometimes doesn't)? That's what is confusing.

Why wouldn't they display the de-restriction sign? Saving power? I thought the whole point of the gantrys was to clearly inform drivers of prevailing limits.

Maybe time to get a dash cam, otherwise there appears to be no way of proving what was displayed should you get caught "speeding".

Edited by dr_gn on Thursday 1st June 07:56

[Sheepshanks]

dvenman said:

That'll be interesting the first time someone takes a ticket for that to court...

I might be missing something here, but in what circumstances could it result in a ticket?

[dr_gn]

Sheepshanks said:

dvenman said:

That'll be interesting the first time someone takes a ticket for that to court...

I might be missing something here, but in what circumstances could it result in a ticket?

If you're doing 70 after a previously displayed lower limit, despite the de-restriction sign not being displayed on subsequent gantries.

[vonhosen]

dr_gn said:

Sheepshanks said:

dvenman said:

That'll be interesting the first time someone takes a ticket for that to court...

I might be missing something here, but in what circumstances could it result in a ticket?

If you're doing 70 after a previously displayed lower limit, despite the de-restriction sign not being displayed on subsequent gantries.

Without the lower limit being displayed on subsequent gantries you aren't going to get that ticket.

[dr_gn]

vonhosen said:

dr_gn said:

Sheepshanks said:

dvenman said:

That'll be interesting the first time someone takes a ticket for that to court...

I might be missing something here, but in what circumstances could it result in a ticket?

If you're doing 70 after a previously displayed lower limit, despite the de-restriction sign not being displayed on subsequent gantries.

Without the lower limit being displayed on subsequent gantries you aren't going to get that ticket.

Then why display the national speed limit on gantries at all?

On the stretch of motorway I use, there is no default - sometimes there's nothing after a restriction, sometimes there's the national speed limit.

What about lane closures - when do you assume the lane is re-opened, if nothing is displayed on subsequent gantries? The next blank gantry? Or - as happens sometimes - speed limits shown for all lanes again?

Another anomaly is restrictions on Tinsley viaduct for high winds - a few weeks back there was a 40 limit before the viaduct, and again immediately after, despite there being no issue after the viaduct. In that case the national speed limit was displayed about a mile further on. Crazy.

It's as if the people operating the signs have no clue about the reality of what's happening - similar to the matrix signs which inform you of non-exsistant hazards.

Edited by dr_gn on Thursday 1st June 11:10

[Sheepshanks]

dr_gn said:

On the stretch of motorway I use, there is no default - sometimes there's nothing after a restriction, sometimes there's the national speed limit.

I think the M42/M6 variable is like that too. Never really thought about it, but agree there could be scope for confusion amongst some drivers.

[essayer]

Looks like legislation is defined per section of motorway
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2011/909/regula...

"(2) A section of road is subject to a variable speed limit in relation to a vehicle being driven on it if—
(a)the road is specified in the Schedule;
(b)the vehicle has passed a speed limit sign; and
(c)the vehicle has not passed—
(i)another speed limit sign indicating a different speed limit; or
(ii)a traffic sign which indicates that the national speed limit is in force."

So I infer from this that a blank sign cannot indicate the end of the section..and the lower limit applies until reaching a sign displaying the contrary or the section covered by legislation ends..?

[dr_gn]

essayer said:

Looks like legislation is defined per section of motorway
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2011/909/regula...

"(2) A section of road is subject to a variable speed limit in relation to a vehicle being driven on it if—
(a)the road is specified in the Schedule;
(b)the vehicle has passed a speed limit sign; and
(c)the vehicle has not passed—
(i)another speed limit sign indicating a different speed limit; or
(ii)a traffic sign which indicates that the national speed limit is in force."

So I infer from this that a blank sign cannot indicate the end of the section..and the lower limit applies until reaching a sign displaying the contrary or the section covered by legislation ends..?

So me travelling at 40mph as per the last illuminated sign, while most others were doing 70mph plus, is probably correct, despite undoubtedly being a hazard, (particularly since HGV's were moving to lane 2 to avoid me on a busy stretch)?

In other words I have a choice of potentially causing an accident (due to me driving within the law), or getting a ticket due to speeding?

Edited by dr_gn on Thursday 1st June 12:00

[vonhosen]

dr_gn said:

essayer said:

Looks like legislation is defined per section of motorway
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2011/909/regula...

"(2) A section of road is subject to a variable speed limit in relation to a vehicle being driven on it if—
(a)the road is specified in the Schedule;
(b)the vehicle has passed a speed limit sign; and
(c)the vehicle has not passed—
(i)another speed limit sign indicating a different speed limit; or
(ii)a traffic sign which indicates that the national speed limit is in force."

So I infer from this that a blank sign cannot indicate the end of the section..and the lower limit applies until reaching a sign displaying the contrary or the section covered by legislation ends..?

So me travelling at 40mph as per the last illuminated sign, while most others were doing 70mph plus, is probably correct, despite undoubtedly being a hazard, (particularly since HGV's were moving to lane 2 to avoid me on a busy stretch)?

In other words I have a choice of potentially causing an accident (due to me driving within the law), or getting a ticket due to speeding?

Only from a practical point you won't get a ticket where you've passed the gantries which aren't illuminated, so that choice won't exist.

[dr_gn]

vonhosen said:

dr_gn said:

essayer said:

Looks like legislation is defined per section of motorway
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2011/909/regula...

"(2) A section of road is subject to a variable speed limit in relation to a vehicle being driven on it if—
(a)the road is specified in the Schedule;
(b)the vehicle has passed a speed limit sign; and
(c)the vehicle has not passed—
(i)another speed limit sign indicating a different speed limit; or
(ii)a traffic sign which indicates that the national speed limit is in force."

So I infer from this that a blank sign cannot indicate the end of the section..and the lower limit applies until reaching a sign displaying the contrary or the section covered by legislation ends..?

So me travelling at 40mph as per the last illuminated sign, while most others were doing 70mph plus, is probably correct, despite undoubtedly being a hazard, (particularly since HGV's were moving to lane 2 to avoid me on a busy stretch)?

In other words I have a choice of potentially causing an accident (due to me driving within the law), or getting a ticket due to speeding?

Only from a practical point you won't get a ticket where you've passed the gantries which aren't illuminated, so that choice won't exist.

OK, I'm assuming you're a policeman or have direct knowledge of how these things are intended to operate.

Officially though, these two official government guidelines directly contradict each other:

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/how-to-drive-on-a-smar...

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2011/909/regula...

Not sure how this is possible considering the amount of time, money, resource and inconvenience to drivers it's taken to get this stretch of motorway "upgraded".

[cmaguire]

All this confusion about something contrived to solve various problems of questionable merit in the first place.
There is nothing 'smart' about any of it, whether in principle or in operation.

[Solocle]

OK, it looks like we have a situation.
From a legislative perspective, yes. The OP is breaking the law by speeding up to the NSL without seeing a derestriction sign.
However, at the same time, anything entering the motorway is perfectly at liberty to drive at the NSL.
So, we have two different speed limits for different road users, based on where they entered the motorway. HAZARD.
I would speed up to go with the flow - safety for me comes before the law. If you're really concerned, exit the motorway and immediately reenter. Moral conundrum avoided.

[cmaguire]

Solocle said:

OK, it looks like we have a situation.
From a legislative perspective, yes. The OP is breaking the law by speeding up to the NSL without seeing a derestriction sign.
However, at the same time, anything entering the motorway is perfectly at liberty to drive at the NSL.
So, we have two different speed limits for different road users, based on where they entered the motorway. HAZARD.
I would speed up to go with the flow - safety for me comes before the law. If you're really concerned, exit the motorway and immediately reenter. Moral conundrum avoided.

The Law trumps everything apparently, even when it's wrong it's right.

[Solocle]

The impression on the wider internet is that driving without due care & attention applies to 40 mph on an NSL motorway.
So we have a situation where you're either breaking the speed limit... or driving without due care and attention.

[dr_gn]

That's progress folks!

The first few times it happened I thought I'd missed a sign somewhere, but after a few times it happened I thought I'd just not kept up with the Highway Code. On the face of it, it seems like there is some ambiguity.

[boosmithv70d5]

The "Smart" motorway on the M1 around Luton is ridiculous. The amount of time (well over a decade) and money spent on it to achieve traffic chugging along at 40/50 is absurd. And now they are working on the bit between Milton Keynes sort of area and the M6. another decade I would imagine. They've widened the road to 4 lanes but of course no-one knows how to drive on 4 lane roads so you normally end up with miles of tail gaters in lane 4, with 1 2 and 3 full of drivers aimlessly drifting along, not really sure which lane to be in. then of course when the 4 lanes become 3, it's traffic jam time.

[dr_gn]

On my commute I've noticed that the majority of people joining the 4 lane bits (where the slip road becomes lane 1) immediately move into lane 2 as for a normal slip road, irrespective of need. This invariably leaves lane 1 almost empty.

I've learned to treat anyone joining from that junction (34) as a potential psychopath. I've seen countless near misses, all of which were unnecessary.