Traffic light Grand Prix nonsense
Discussion
Well, not really, but it's the best short analogy I could come up with. This same scenario has happened to me twice now, on the same stretch of road, so it's got me questioning my actions. Even though I think I'm right, and that I just happened to meet two loons in the same situation twice, I would rather seek peer/superior opinion than remain potentially ignorant.
Basically, I've recently accidentally 'beaten' two different lady drivers off from the lights on a 60mph limit dual carriageway (A580 / East Lancs Road) from a standing start. The incidents happened a good few months apart. Crucially (in their eyes) I was lead car at the lights in lane 1, while they were lead car in lane 2. My 2.0 turbo petrol (220ps or so) didn't see over 2,000rpm each time as I was purposefully taking it easy and had sleeping babies on board.
The two underpowered (and/or under-used) cars in question were a Pug 207 and a BMW 116d. They just couldn't scrape away from the line and up the hill from 0-60 in anything like normal times, so I managed to waft swiftly ahead without even trying. I'm not talking about leaving them standing either; though of course I easily could have if I'd wanted to (220ps vs ~70ps). Imagine overtaking a car in lane 1 of the motorway when you're in lane 2, or similar. That kind of gentle differential is all we're talking about here, but the lane order just happened to be reversed.
In both instances, the other party just drifted back into lane one behind me when I got ahead. So far, so good. Unfortunately they both then launched into flashing headlights, beeping horns, swearing and gesturing etc. Now if we were already rolling around the speed limit and I had come up behind then blasted past them on the inside, I'd almost understand. Even then it'd be a question of 'why are you in lane 2 if 1 is empty?'
However we're talking about two stationary cars setting off from lights, and one happens to be more powerful than the other even when sedately driven. Yesterday the girl caught me at the next lights (as I said, I wasn't rushing) and she went metal. Apparently I'm dangerous, and my driving is illegal. Not letting her win off the lights when she's in lane 2 is undertaking and I need to read the Highway Code.
I was very calm, and more bemused/curious how this keeps happening. I politely stated that it's not overtaking on the inside if the other person just happens not to be make it away from the lights for whatever reason, and I asked her to qualify how - exactly - I had placed her in danger? She couldn't think of an answer and so got more irate. She went back to me being a dangerous prick and my driving being illegal, so I need to read the Highway Code.
I was a bit miffed by now, though didn't show it, and asked whether she meant the section on passing on the left when two lanes of traffic are moving at slightly different speeds, or the rule about not using your horn to remonstrate with other road users as she did? In fact, once again could she actually give me any reason at all why she imagined my car not being as slow as hers was dangerous? If her little diesel can't make it off the line to the extent even traffic purposely pootling slowly in lane 1 beats her away, perhaps she ought to avoid stopping in lane 2 on fast roads, and holding up everyone behind her who are left with nowhere to overtake her?
She was flummoxed by now, and just ranted a bit then drove off because the light went green. So did I - a fair bit faster than she.
Now I'm normally one for making brisk progress, but in an average speed kind of way rather than a traffic light Grand Prix / nail it like a tit only to slam on at the next set of lights and traffic kind of way. I do my best to blend in with traffic, don't draw attention and generally just get on with it. I really would ordinary think these ladies were a bit... special. But as I said for it to happen twice, on the same bit of road, under the same circumstances, with two different people; well I'm wondering if I'm the one missing something?
Basically, I've recently accidentally 'beaten' two different lady drivers off from the lights on a 60mph limit dual carriageway (A580 / East Lancs Road) from a standing start. The incidents happened a good few months apart. Crucially (in their eyes) I was lead car at the lights in lane 1, while they were lead car in lane 2. My 2.0 turbo petrol (220ps or so) didn't see over 2,000rpm each time as I was purposefully taking it easy and had sleeping babies on board.
The two underpowered (and/or under-used) cars in question were a Pug 207 and a BMW 116d. They just couldn't scrape away from the line and up the hill from 0-60 in anything like normal times, so I managed to waft swiftly ahead without even trying. I'm not talking about leaving them standing either; though of course I easily could have if I'd wanted to (220ps vs ~70ps). Imagine overtaking a car in lane 1 of the motorway when you're in lane 2, or similar. That kind of gentle differential is all we're talking about here, but the lane order just happened to be reversed.
In both instances, the other party just drifted back into lane one behind me when I got ahead. So far, so good. Unfortunately they both then launched into flashing headlights, beeping horns, swearing and gesturing etc. Now if we were already rolling around the speed limit and I had come up behind then blasted past them on the inside, I'd almost understand. Even then it'd be a question of 'why are you in lane 2 if 1 is empty?'
However we're talking about two stationary cars setting off from lights, and one happens to be more powerful than the other even when sedately driven. Yesterday the girl caught me at the next lights (as I said, I wasn't rushing) and she went metal. Apparently I'm dangerous, and my driving is illegal. Not letting her win off the lights when she's in lane 2 is undertaking and I need to read the Highway Code.
I was very calm, and more bemused/curious how this keeps happening. I politely stated that it's not overtaking on the inside if the other person just happens not to be make it away from the lights for whatever reason, and I asked her to qualify how - exactly - I had placed her in danger? She couldn't think of an answer and so got more irate. She went back to me being a dangerous prick and my driving being illegal, so I need to read the Highway Code.
I was a bit miffed by now, though didn't show it, and asked whether she meant the section on passing on the left when two lanes of traffic are moving at slightly different speeds, or the rule about not using your horn to remonstrate with other road users as she did? In fact, once again could she actually give me any reason at all why she imagined my car not being as slow as hers was dangerous? If her little diesel can't make it off the line to the extent even traffic purposely pootling slowly in lane 1 beats her away, perhaps she ought to avoid stopping in lane 2 on fast roads, and holding up everyone behind her who are left with nowhere to overtake her?
She was flummoxed by now, and just ranted a bit then drove off because the light went green. So did I - a fair bit faster than she.
Now I'm normally one for making brisk progress, but in an average speed kind of way rather than a traffic light Grand Prix / nail it like a tit only to slam on at the next set of lights and traffic kind of way. I do my best to blend in with traffic, don't draw attention and generally just get on with it. I really would ordinary think these ladies were a bit... special. But as I said for it to happen twice, on the same bit of road, under the same circumstances, with two different people; well I'm wondering if I'm the one missing something?You are doing nothing wrong OP, I frequently do the same as you, however I never get abuse for it, the person in lane 2 should be quicker off the mark, if they aren't then that is their problem.
I love the ones who sit in lane 2 riding their clutch, they are constantly edging forward and dropping back, edging forward and dropping back, looking as though they want to race off, the lights change and they don't move.
I love the ones who sit in lane 2 riding their clutch, they are constantly edging forward and dropping back, edging forward and dropping back, looking as though they want to race off, the lights change and they don't move.
This sort of behavior is fairly common but still remains odd.
On a number of occasions I've been in lane 1 on my bike (GSX-R600 0-60 in 3s) and without really trying I've left the car trying to overtake off the lights behind to suddenly find them plastered to my rear wheel at whatever the speed limit is often with the usual flashing lights and hand signals. Most of the time I just ignore them but if they are being particularity dangerous, I invite them to pull over and discuss it with me (which almost never happens).
I think it's just the outrage of them trying to get ahead of your and failing. I also think cars turn some otherwise normal people into maniacs when they get behind the wheel.
On a number of occasions I've been in lane 1 on my bike (GSX-R600 0-60 in 3s) and without really trying I've left the car trying to overtake off the lights behind to suddenly find them plastered to my rear wheel at whatever the speed limit is often with the usual flashing lights and hand signals. Most of the time I just ignore them but if they are being particularity dangerous, I invite them to pull over and discuss it with me (which almost never happens).
I think it's just the outrage of them trying to get ahead of your and failing. I also think cars turn some otherwise normal people into maniacs when they get behind the wheel.
I think what you say you did is completely normal. From the front row at the lights I expect each vehicle to move away at their own pace with no particular order of priority. Generally, a car with automatic gears will get ahead of manuals. I am really surprised at the reaction you have encountered. I suggest it is best to ignore that sort of reaction as responding could escalate into a road rage incident.
Thanks chaps. As I said at first I was sure of myself but after the second go-around I started to wonder if I'd missed something.
While it's hard to convey a situation in text, I can assure you at no point did it feel anything like a developing road rage incident, especially as she was a small 20(ish) year old girl and I'm a powerfully built mid-30s director type. She was just vexed so I heard her out and responded politely. No harm done, but I was hoping to learn what the common cause for frustration seemed to be.
waremark said:
I think what you say you did is completely normal. From the front row at the lights I expect each vehicle to move away at their own pace with no particular order of priority. Generally, a car with automatic gears will get ahead of manuals. I am really surprised at the reaction you have encountered. I suggest it is best to ignore that sort of reaction as responding could escalate into a road rage incident.
Quite right. I ignored the original lady completely, and only (politely) engaged the second because our windows were already open due to the weather and I was intrigued as to what the problem seemed to be. I obviously wouldn't have responded if it was someone being blatantly aggressive, but she was clearly just a little annoyed and wanted to tell me so. I was only too happy to hear why, and always had the option to wind up the window and drive away if she started turning things ugly. While it's hard to convey a situation in text, I can assure you at no point did it feel anything like a developing road rage incident, especially as she was a small 20(ish) year old girl and I'm a powerfully built mid-30s director type.
She was just vexed so I heard her out and responded politely. No harm done, but I was hoping to learn what the common cause for frustration seemed to be.This happened to my wife a couple of years back, only it got worse !!.
At the time she had a Peugeot 205 GTi 1.9. Quite light and quick as you will all know.
The other lady dropped in behind and proceeded to follow.
Less than a mile further on, a police patrol car screeched past and stopped my wife !!.
The other lady was an off duty police inspector, and she had called the patrol car off the M1 motorway to intercept my wife ??.
She made the officers take my wife in the back of their car and give her a grilling.
When the lady eventually left the scene, one of the officers told my wife that this wasn't the first time this had happened.
Wow !!??.
At the time she had a Peugeot 205 GTi 1.9. Quite light and quick as you will all know.
The other lady dropped in behind and proceeded to follow.
Less than a mile further on, a police patrol car screeched past and stopped my wife !!.
The other lady was an off duty police inspector, and she had called the patrol car off the M1 motorway to intercept my wife ??.
She made the officers take my wife in the back of their car and give her a grilling.
When the lady eventually left the scene, one of the officers told my wife that this wasn't the first time this had happened.
Wow !!??.
K8-600 said:
This sort of behavior is fairly common but still remains odd.
On a number of occasions I've been in lane 1 on my bike (GSX-R600 0-60 in 3s) and without really trying I've left the car trying to overtake off the lights behind to suddenly find them plastered to my rear wheel at whatever the speed limit is often with the usual flashing lights and hand signals. Most of the time I just ignore them but if they are being particularity dangerous, I invite them to pull over and discuss it with me (which almost never happens).
I think it's just the outrage of them trying to get ahead of your and failing. I also think cars turn some otherwise normal people into maniacs when they get behind the wheel.
You need a newer and faster bike sir. I don't seem to get the hand signals on my L4 GSXR1000. They're too far behind for me to see them.:P On a number of occasions I've been in lane 1 on my bike (GSX-R600 0-60 in 3s) and without really trying I've left the car trying to overtake off the lights behind to suddenly find them plastered to my rear wheel at whatever the speed limit is often with the usual flashing lights and hand signals. Most of the time I just ignore them but if they are being particularity dangerous, I invite them to pull over and discuss it with me (which almost never happens).
I think it's just the outrage of them trying to get ahead of your and failing. I also think cars turn some otherwise normal people into maniacs when they get behind the wheel.
WaferThinHam said:
K8-600 said:
This sort of behavior is fairly common but still remains odd.
On a number of occasions I've been in lane 1 on my bike (GSX-R600 0-60 in 3s) and without really trying I've left the car trying to overtake off the lights behind to suddenly find them plastered to my rear wheel at whatever the speed limit is often with the usual flashing lights and hand signals. Most of the time I just ignore them but if they are being particularity dangerous, I invite them to pull over and discuss it with me (which almost never happens).
I think it's just the outrage of them trying to get ahead of your and failing. I also think cars turn some otherwise normal people into maniacs when they get behind the wheel.
You need a newer and faster bike sir. I don't seem to get the hand signals on my L4 GSXR1000. They're too far behind for me to see them.:P On a number of occasions I've been in lane 1 on my bike (GSX-R600 0-60 in 3s) and without really trying I've left the car trying to overtake off the lights behind to suddenly find them plastered to my rear wheel at whatever the speed limit is often with the usual flashing lights and hand signals. Most of the time I just ignore them but if they are being particularity dangerous, I invite them to pull over and discuss it with me (which almost never happens).
I think it's just the outrage of them trying to get ahead of your and failing. I also think cars turn some otherwise normal people into maniacs when they get behind the wheel.
I'm generally faster than most cars but I ride in the city fairly conservatively.
Still I do want a bike that has a bit more torque. I'm going to change to a S1000R this year when I get around to it.
Edited by K8-600 on Saturday 20th May 16:28
I certainly don't understand getting so worked up about it. Recently I went into lane 2, as it was clear and I'm pretty quick off the lights. The vehicle at the front of L1 looked big and sluggish, but I think it was a Range Rover Sport. The driver of that (auto I reckon) didn't like a Skoda Citigo trying to pass him. I'm pretty certain he floored it off the lights. I got a better start, but just didn't have the power to get far enough ahead, and shifting to 2nd gear meant him flying past. Still, it wasn't an inconvenience for me - there was a nice big gap behind him, so I's still made good progress!
It's interesting psychology isn't it - they're obviously feeling like they "lost" and are lashing out at you with the misguided belief that they had the right to overtake and you deliberately blocked them.
Maybe they were actually heading for L1 in the first place and hoping to skip past you at the lights. A failed attempt to overtake with the consequences of ending up in an incorrect lane adding to their aggression towards you.
Or maybe they just breeze past slower drivers on a daily basis and have got used to the perceived right to an easy pass.
I have similar on a daily basis, although after the set of lights (2 lanes both turning 90 degrees right) the right lane merges into the left 100 yards or so past the junction. I'm always in L1 - it's amazing how frustrated people get when they move over into L2 alongside me at the red light to set themselves up for a pass, then have to pull in behind me when I'm quicker around the corner - I'm never usually trying very hard. Add in people who's poor observation makes them automatically choose L2 without reading the signage properly and it all gets a bit chaotic at the merge point...
Maybe they were actually heading for L1 in the first place and hoping to skip past you at the lights. A failed attempt to overtake with the consequences of ending up in an incorrect lane adding to their aggression towards you.
Or maybe they just breeze past slower drivers on a daily basis and have got used to the perceived right to an easy pass.
I have similar on a daily basis, although after the set of lights (2 lanes both turning 90 degrees right) the right lane merges into the left 100 yards or so past the junction. I'm always in L1 - it's amazing how frustrated people get when they move over into L2 alongside me at the red light to set themselves up for a pass, then have to pull in behind me when I'm quicker around the corner - I'm never usually trying very hard. Add in people who's poor observation makes them automatically choose L2 without reading the signage properly and it all gets a bit chaotic at the merge point...
Here in Sydney, with so few manual cars it's surprising how slow most are at moving away from traffic lights. One of the best things to impede a driver's progress is the auto-stop system. Many times I easily and gently move away ahead of the VW, Audi etc. whilst their driver's brain has to think about coming off the brake to restart the engine. They have to catch up and tailgate!
On a slightly different subject do you have, in the UK, red light cameras? We have many combined red-light speed cameras.
On a slightly different subject do you have, in the UK, red light cameras? We have many combined red-light speed cameras.
Doesn't matter what lane I'm in 1, 2 or 3. If I'm at some traffic lights and I'm at the front I will move away from those lights as fast as possible and up to the speed limit and be gone. If I'm at the traffic lights and it's going into NSL you can guarantee I will use Launch Control to make that even faster! ha
The amount of people that then take an age to catch up and then pass in L2 because they feel the need to 'win' is very high though.
The amount of people that then take an age to catch up and then pass in L2 because they feel the need to 'win' is very high though.
Edited by ashleyman on Monday 22 May 14:39
As others have said, I find that I'm usually quicker in lane 1 without trying. Can't say I've ever had abuse for it though.
I think there are just some people out there who think there's another set of rules. I had a chap drift across the white line towards me from lane 3 on the M5 the other week - volume of traffic and, let's face it, a load of idiots in that lane, meant lane 3 was moving more slowly than lanes 2 and 3, as is often the case. But I got the same reaction as you OP - he got really quite irate and was very unimpressed that I was 'undertaking' him.
Actually, now as I write it I guess it's probably just a manifestation of the British queuing mentality. He was in the fast lane, so he's ahead, how dare I queue jump?!
I think there are just some people out there who think there's another set of rules. I had a chap drift across the white line towards me from lane 3 on the M5 the other week - volume of traffic and, let's face it, a load of idiots in that lane, meant lane 3 was moving more slowly than lanes 2 and 3, as is often the case. But I got the same reaction as you OP - he got really quite irate and was very unimpressed that I was 'undertaking' him.
Actually, now as I write it I guess it's probably just a manifestation of the British queuing mentality. He was in the fast lane, so he's ahead, how dare I queue jump?!
Len Woodman said:
Here in Sydney, with so few manual cars it's surprising how slow most are at moving away from traffic lights. One of the best things to impede a driver's progress is the auto-stop system. Many times I easily and gently move away ahead of the VW, Audi etc. whilst their driver's brain has to think about coming off the brake to restart the engine. They have to catch up and tailgate!
On a slightly different subject do you have, in the UK, red light cameras? We have many combined red-light speed cameras.
I regularly see trucks out accelerating people here in the UK.On a slightly different subject do you have, in the UK, red light cameras? We have many combined red-light speed cameras.
It's just that they refuse to push the pedal on the right more than 10-15%. They don't understand why they should move off smartly or how failing to do so affects traffic flow. In general people are thick. In general people drive. E.g. Drivers are generally thick. Which is why a lot of them do things that are unfathomable.
Len Woodman said:
Here in Sydney, with so few manual cars it's surprising how slow most are at moving away from traffic lights. One of the best things to impede a driver's progress is the auto-stop system. Many times I easily and gently move away ahead of the VW, Audi etc. whilst their driver's brain has to think about coming off the brake to restart the engine. They have to catch up and tailgate!
On a slightly different subject do you have, in the UK, red light cameras? We have many combined red-light speed cameras.
We do have red light cameras. However, the number of fixed penalties issued for traffic light offences at 67,000 in 2015 is less than 10% of the number of penalties for exceeding the speed limit. Personally, I do my best to be law-abiding, but I sometimes find myself going over amber lights and feel stressed by the risk of being penalized.On a slightly different subject do you have, in the UK, red light cameras? We have many combined red-light speed cameras.
In most stop start systems, it is quite easy to get the engine started. If I am near the front when waiting at lights, I get the engine started when I see the cross lights or pedestrian lights change so that I am ready to move off.
I don't think it's that they feel like they've lost, it's because you're a 39mph man and they're late for work and want to do 45, but are now stuck behind.
I wouldn't lose any sleep over it, if you want less stress,simply let them overtake on the next lights. Not like you ever get 2 green in a row on the east lancs!
I wouldn't lose any sleep over it, if you want less stress,simply let them overtake on the next lights. Not like you ever get 2 green in a row on the east lancs!
Some Gump said:
I don't think it's that they feel like they've lost, it's because you're a 39mph man and they're late for work and want to do 45, but are now stuck behind.
I wouldn't lose any sleep over it, if you want less stress,simply let them overtake on the next lights. Not like you ever get 2 green in a row on the east lancs!
That's the thing though, I'm "well up to the limits" as my RoADAR examiner politely put it, and they can't keep up with me (until the next red?)... I'm not exactly holding them up and in both scenarios lane 2 was basically empty at the time. They just couldn't catch me to get past again, and basically disappeared behind me in a flurry of headlight flashes and horn beeps. They just don't like that they're not in front. Buy a faster car, perhaps? I wouldn't lose any sleep over it, if you want less stress,simply let them overtake on the next lights. Not like you ever get 2 green in a row on the east lancs!
Edited by rainmakerraw on Tuesday 23 May 00:45
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