Vonhonsen's misleading corner

[Somewhatfoolish]

A looonnnnnng time ago, maybe close to a decade, and it might even have been on advanced driving UK (as was) or the safespeed forums, Vonhonsen recommended an interesting corner somewhere not that far from Peterborough which is incredibly misleading if driven with standard limit point analysis.

Does anyone know the corner I'm referring to, and where is it?

[NiceCupOfTea]

I thought this thread was going to be about something completely different, a sort of Advanced Driving "Call My Bluff".

[carreauchompeur]

Interesting, limit point analysis doesn't always work out with tightening corners...

[Some Gump]

Why did I read this as "Verhoven's misleading corners"? Like it was advertised at 8.2 MPG but only got 6. I'd buy that for a dollar.

[NiceCupOfTea]

Some Gump said:

Why did I read this as "Verhoven's misleading corners"? Like it was advertised at 8.2 MPG but only got 6. I'd buy that for a dollar.

[vonhosen]

Somewhatfoolish said:

A looonnnnnng time ago, maybe close to a decade, and it might even have been on advanced driving UK (as was) or the safespeed forums, Vonhonsen recommended an interesting corner somewhere not that far from Peterborough which is incredibly misleading if driven with standard limit point analysis.

Does anyone know the corner I'm referring to, and where is it?

It's not that I'd call it necessarily misleading but any bend that has a (at first unsighted) second apex or simply that starts out gentle & then tightens has the potential to catch people out when pressing on.

Two bends in the area you are talking about that I've seen many a person perform less than perfect on (even if they haven't ended up in the ditch), so you may say getting caught out, are these.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.4311009,-0.35975...


https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.3900014,-0.20450...

[supersport]

vonhosen said:

Somewhatfoolish said:

A looonnnnnng time ago, maybe close to a decade, and it might even have been on advanced driving UK (as was) or the safespeed forums, Vonhonsen recommended an interesting corner somewhere not that far from Peterborough which is incredibly misleading if driven with standard limit point analysis.

Does anyone know the corner I'm referring to, and where is it?

It's not that I'd call it necessarily misleading but any bend that has a (at first unsighted) second apex or simply that starts out gentle & then tightens has the potential to catch people out when pressing on.

Two bends in the area you are talking about that I've seen many a person perform less than perfect on (even if they haven't ended up in the ditch), so you may say getting caught out, are these.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.4311009,-0.35975...


https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.3900014,-0.20450...

That first one is a great road, but don't remember that bend being trouble.

But the second one I remember well being caught out on as a learner driver. I guessed that was a likely candidate from the op's question.

[terry tibbs]

vonhosen said:

It's not that I'd call it necessarily misleading but any bend that has a (at first unsighted) second apex or simply that starts out gentle & then tightens has the potential to catch people out when pressing on.

Two bends in the area you are talking about that I've seen many a person perform less than perfect on (even if they haven't ended up in the ditch), so you may say getting caught out, are these.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.4311009,-0.35975...


https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.3900014,-0.20450...

i've done the second one several times now, the road is partly featured in a YouTube video, so thought I'd give it go to break the monotony of the journey home, it does catch you the first couple of times, the whole b road is interesting mainly from the r'about with a141

[vonhosen]

supersport said:

vonhosen said:

Somewhatfoolish said:

A looonnnnnng time ago, maybe close to a decade, and it might even have been on advanced driving UK (as was) or the safespeed forums, Vonhonsen recommended an interesting corner somewhere not that far from Peterborough which is incredibly misleading if driven with standard limit point analysis.

Does anyone know the corner I'm referring to, and where is it?

It's not that I'd call it necessarily misleading but any bend that has a (at first unsighted) second apex or simply that starts out gentle & then tightens has the potential to catch people out when pressing on.

Two bends in the area you are talking about that I've seen many a person perform less than perfect on (even if they haven't ended up in the ditch), so you may say getting caught out, are these.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.4311009,-0.35975...


https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.3900014,-0.20450...

That first one is a great road, but don't remember that bend being trouble.


But the second one I remember well being caught out on as a learner driver. I guessed that was a likely candidate from the op's question.

It depends on the level of progress you are attempting to make & whether you've been through there before. If you've not been through before & are driving/riding as fast as you think you safely can you'll have no prior knowledge so be reliant on using the limit point analysis. As I say I picked those two because I've seen plenty an experienced driver/rider pressing on & make a mess of those particular two resulting in it disrupting their flow, which up until that point had been pretty good.

[WinstonWolf]

supersport said:

vonhosen said:

Somewhatfoolish said:

A looonnnnnng time ago, maybe close to a decade, and it might even have been on advanced driving UK (as was) or the safespeed forums, Vonhonsen recommended an interesting corner somewhere not that far from Peterborough which is incredibly misleading if driven with standard limit point analysis.

Does anyone know the corner I'm referring to, and where is it?

It's not that I'd call it necessarily misleading but any bend that has a (at first unsighted) second apex or simply that starts out gentle & then tightens has the potential to catch people out when pressing on.

Two bends in the area you are talking about that I've seen many a person perform less than perfect on (even if they haven't ended up in the ditch), so you may say getting caught out, are these.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.4311009,-0.35975...


https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.3900014,-0.20450...

That first one is a great road, but don't remember that bend being trouble.

But the second one I remember well being caught out on as a learner driver. I guessed that was a likely candidate from the op's question.

https://www.google.com/maps/@52.4048489,-0.2158938...

On the same road this can really catch you out, it looks faster than it actually is.

Edited by WinstonWolf on Sunday 30th April 11:21

[Somewhatfoolish]

vonhosen said:

supersport said:

vonhosen said:

Somewhatfoolish said:

A looonnnnnng time ago, maybe close to a decade, and it might even have been on advanced driving UK (as was) or the safespeed forums, Vonhonsen recommended an interesting corner somewhere not that far from Peterborough which is incredibly misleading if driven with standard limit point analysis.

Does anyone know the corner I'm referring to, and where is it?

It's not that I'd call it necessarily misleading but any bend that has a (at first unsighted) second apex or simply that starts out gentle & then tightens has the potential to catch people out when pressing on.

Two bends in the area you are talking about that I've seen many a person perform less than perfect on (even if they haven't ended up in the ditch), so you may say getting caught out, are these.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.4311009,-0.35975...


https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.3900014,-0.20450...

That first one is a great road, but don't remember that bend being trouble.


But the second one I remember well being caught out on as a learner driver. I guessed that was a likely candidate from the op's question.

It depends on the level of progress you are attempting to make & whether you've been through there before. If you've not been through before & are driving/riding as fast as you think you safely can you'll have no prior knowledge so be reliant on using the limit point analysis. As I say I picked those two because I've seen plenty an experienced driver/rider pressing on & make a mess of those particular two resulting in it disrupting their flow, which up until that point had been pretty good.

Thanks - it's definitely the second corner you've linked, I recognise it now and will attempt to revisit it again in near future

Do you have a particular 'lesson' from this other than limit point isn't always perfect - e.g. a recommended technique for such unknown corners / recognising these corners?

[vonhosen]

Somewhatfoolish said:

vonhosen said:

supersport said:

vonhosen said:

Somewhatfoolish said:

A looonnnnnng time ago, maybe close to a decade, and it might even have been on advanced driving UK (as was) or the safespeed forums, Vonhonsen recommended an interesting corner somewhere not that far from Peterborough which is incredibly misleading if driven with standard limit point analysis.

Does anyone know the corner I'm referring to, and where is it?

It's not that I'd call it necessarily misleading but any bend that has a (at first unsighted) second apex or simply that starts out gentle & then tightens has the potential to catch people out when pressing on.

Two bends in the area you are talking about that I've seen many a person perform less than perfect on (even if they haven't ended up in the ditch), so you may say getting caught out, are these.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.4311009,-0.35975...


https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.3900014,-0.20450...

That first one is a great road, but don't remember that bend being trouble.


But the second one I remember well being caught out on as a learner driver. I guessed that was a likely candidate from the op's question.

It depends on the level of progress you are attempting to make & whether you've been through there before. If you've not been through before & are driving/riding as fast as you think you safely can you'll have no prior knowledge so be reliant on using the limit point analysis. As I say I picked those two because I've seen plenty an experienced driver/rider pressing on & make a mess of those particular two resulting in it disrupting their flow, which up until that point had been pretty good.

Thanks - it's definitely the second corner you've linked, I recognise it now and will attempt to revisit it again in near future

Do you have a particular 'lesson' from this other than limit point isn't always perfect - e.g. a recommended technique for such unknown corners / recognising these corners?

It's not the fault of the limit point, it's the driver being too keen & greedy with the throttle due to their desire for progress.
They are anticipating it opening up more & quicker than it actually is. It appears to be matched or even opening slightly but instead tightens after they've assumed (rather than confirmed) it's opening.
In the second one the junction right can also result in them taking their eye off the ball a tad just at a time they don't want to.

[hman]

does this one also qualify

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.8714354,-0.76500...

[BareFacedGeek]

Frustratingly, I always seem to have issues with this corner. I don't drive on that road too often but I always seem to misjudge it, taking the corner faster than I really should be doing. I might try it again tonight on my way home. From memory, 20mph is plenty fast enough (at least in my car, with me driving ).

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.2377187,-0.08815...

[Adamxck]

BareFacedGeek said:

Frustratingly, I always seem to have issues with this corner. I don't drive on that road too often but I always seem to misjudge it, taking the corner faster than I really should be doing. I might try it again tonight on my way home. From memory, 20mph is plenty fast enough (at least in my car, with me driving ).

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.2377187,-0.08815...

Shame about the opening on the right, otherwise that would be gorgeous. Nice early cross view, use all the road, clip the apex (because race car) and on your way. Unless the entrance is better sighted in real life, I suspect slow is certainly the order of the day.

I find on bends like these, because I can see everything, I have a tendency to underestimate the braking required to get around the thing. Perhaps you have a similar issue. There is no limit point as such, so it's a lot harder to judge the correct speed as you are technically (but in reality, shouldn't be) in the realms of limit of adhesion, rather than the limit of vision, which we are so used to.

"If it feels a little too slow on the way in, it's probably about right." A good thought for all of the corner in this thread, but oddly, especially the ones you can see all the way around.

[vonhosen]

BareFacedGeek said:

Frustratingly, I always seem to have issues with this corner. I don't drive on that road too often but I always seem to misjudge it, taking the corner faster than I really should be doing. I might try it again tonight on my way home. From memory, 20mph is plenty fast enough (at least in my car, with me driving ).

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.2377187,-0.08815...

I know that one well too.
It and the following one are tight (90 degree) bends, but with generally good lateral vision.

[Somewhatfoolish]

Adamxck said:

BareFacedGeek said:

Shame about the opening on the right, otherwise that would be gorgeous. Nice early cross view, use all the road, clip the apex (because race car) and on your way. Unless the entrance is better sighted in real life, I suspect slow is certainly the order of the day.

Not familiar with the corner, but looking on streetview, there's a gate

[nonsequitur]

NiceCupOfTea said:

I thought this thread was going to be about something completely different, a sort of Advanced Driving "Call My Bluff".

I was convinced that it was going to be a football thread.

[Adamxck]

Somewhatfoolish said:

Not familiar with the corner, but looking on streetview, there's a gate

Which you cant see enough of from far enough back to safely take an offside position. But yes, there is a gate.