A day out with Reg Local
Discussion
I was lucky enough to go out with Reg Local (R_U_LOCAL) for driver training today. I passed my advanced test with the IAM last year and was looking for feedback on my driving since passing the test and for an intensive day of driving. I went out with Reg for an assessment drive and we agreed to focus on cornering for the day, with a brilliant route around Yorkshire on a mix of roads covering just under 400 miles. He's a friendly bloke and tailored the session to me, pushing me without taking me beyond my abilities or those of the car. I can't put it better than how Dan summed up his two days of driving with Reg in http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a... Reg is brilliant if you're looking for an intensive drive, refresher session or for an introduction to advanced driving before signing up for IAM / RoSPA courses.
MorganP104 said:
A who checks the checker scenario, you mean?
Sort of. I was more curious as to whether someone of his standard took additional learning / appraisal.I was taught (after passing my test) by a Class 1 Police driver and I like to think I have good observations and car control. I'm not convinced I'd gain very much from additional tuition. However I'd imagine if I posted that on the IAM website I'd be accused of having the wrong attitude and be told everyone can always learn more etc.
As per Regs comment, the missus is usually a good marker if the observations are slipping or the arrogance slips in.
dvenman said:
Why not get Reg or someone like him to sanity check your observations and car control? and you may learn something, you never know.
Because I genuinely don't think I'd gain anything from doing so. I'm sure minor things would be raised but there wouldn't be anything that would leave the observer concerned - I should imagine they see allsorts of horrors! Out of interest then, where are we placing Reg on that graph? that's a tongue in cheek question BTW I'm not really asking!
woodyTVR said:
... I genuinely don't think I'd gain anything from doing so. ...
If that's because you're happy with the way you're doing things and have no wish to change, then fair enough. If it's because you don't think there's any way to be significantly better then you are, then that's probably mistaken.
Hi Ian - thanks. Feel free to drop me a line if you fancy another drive sometime.
On a related note, it's very very hard for anyone to improve their driving on their own. The right co-driver can spot things you can't, as well as exposing you to different opinions and techniques. I've driven with Ian and Reg in the past, and was out at the weekend with a group including dvenman and IcedKiwi.
As a result of that kind of thing, I'm fully aware of how much further I have to go...
On a related note, it's very very hard for anyone to improve their driving on their own. The right co-driver can spot things you can't, as well as exposing you to different opinions and techniques. I've driven with Ian and Reg in the past, and was out at the weekend with a group including dvenman and IcedKiwi.
As a result of that kind of thing, I'm fully aware of how much further I have to go...
S. Gonzales Esq. said:
If that's because you're happy with the way you're doing things and have no wish to change, then fair enough.
If it's because you don't think there's any way to be significantly better then you are, then that's probably mistaken.
The first one. I'm happy enough that my ability is good enough to reduce any danger on the road. I have had advanced tuition and spent time reading road craft and the likes. I'm also not stupid, a lot of advanced driving is common sense but sometimes you need to be shown that common sense or learn it through experience. I drive a lot through work and would estimate I'm approaching 1,000,000 miles of driving so have had plenty of experience.If it's because you don't think there's any way to be significantly better then you are, then that's probably mistaken.
In terms of the second point I think 'significantly' is a strong word to use. I'd imagine there's pointers which on the whole might be interesting but I doubt there's significant changes to my driving style which would make me any more safe.
It's the old problem - how do you define 'better' driving? If your main priority is maximising safety (and there's nothing at all wrong with that) then I agree - it would be difficult to improve much on an experienced driver who is paying attention and following the rules.
However, if you start adding criteria to the definition of 'better' then things get a bit more difficult. Making good progress; being ultra-smooth; enjoying the balance and performance of a car - all of these are valid aims, and achieving them while maintaining that high level of safety is where things get interesting.
Set yourself the challenge of mastering all three, in any vehicle, and you've got the work of a lifetime.
However, if you start adding criteria to the definition of 'better' then things get a bit more difficult. Making good progress; being ultra-smooth; enjoying the balance and performance of a car - all of these are valid aims, and achieving them while maintaining that high level of safety is where things get interesting.
Set yourself the challenge of mastering all three, in any vehicle, and you've got the work of a lifetime.
S. Gonzales Esq. said:
It's the old problem - how do you define 'better' driving? If your main priority is maximising safety (and there's nothing at all wrong with that) then I agree - it would be difficult to improve much on an experienced driver who is paying attention and following the rules.
However, if you start adding criteria to the definition of 'better' then things get a bit more difficult. Making good progress; being ultra-smooth; enjoying the balance and performance of a car - all of these are valid aims, and achieving them while maintaining that high level of safety is where things get interesting.
Set yourself the challenge of mastering all three, in any vehicle, and you've got the work of a lifetime.
Agreed. I'd argue I was at the higher end of good at all those things but as before I'm sure there's always room for improvement if you feel it's necessary. I don't as I can make good progress in a safe relaxed manner.However, if you start adding criteria to the definition of 'better' then things get a bit more difficult. Making good progress; being ultra-smooth; enjoying the balance and performance of a car - all of these are valid aims, and achieving them while maintaining that high level of safety is where things get interesting.
Set yourself the challenge of mastering all three, in any vehicle, and you've got the work of a lifetime.
My original question though was who does someone like Reg go to for appraisal if indeed he does? He's seen by this group as the best of the best, are we saying he doesn't need to take external guidance because he knows all there is to know?
IcedKiwi said:
I'll leave this image here. Along with the common understand that a coach doesn't need to know more about the subject than the coachee to be able to improve (see professional tennis players etc.).
Are those the only available categories? I hope not, because I don't think I fit into any of them.My situation, purely on my own assessment, seems to be this:
I've been around a very long time and (without being a fanatic or perfectionist) have taken a keen interest in driving, and always tried to work towards being a good driver. I've therefore acquired a lot of experience and hopefully learned fairly well from it and sought to apply that learning in the interests of further improvement and refinement, albeit without any formal 'advanced' training.
Please don't go to the trouble of creating a new category just on my account, but there could be quite a few other drivers around who are in a similar position to me (i.e. pretty dire and totally lacking in confidence
), and some of them might also like to know where they are with this. 
FWIW, my feeling aligns pretty much with what 'woody' is saying.
As usual I accept that I might be wrong, but I rather suspect that a lot of this 'much more to learn' scenario doesn't really add much of substantial benefit, over and above what is already being achieved by somebody like 'woody' - or me for that matter; and anyone who wishes to accuse me of arrogance and complacency is perfectly free to do so.
In any case, is it not somewhat soul destroying to find that after putting in a great deal of effort in the continuing pursuit of perfection (that you're never going to reach anyhow) any progress you do make leaves you still further from your objective? Obviously it's a matter for the individual student to judge, but it's not for me. Quite frankly my suspicion is that a certain amount of this 'additional stuff to learn' doesn't actually add much of real value over and above what is already being produced by a good (though not necessarily formally recognised) 'advanced' driver.
No doubt other viewpoints (seriously at odds with the above) are held in some quarters - which is absolutely fine.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
As usual I accept that I might be wrong, but I rather suspect that a lot of this 'much more to learn' scenario doesn't really add much of substantial benefit, over and above what is already being achieved by somebody like 'woody' - or me for that matter; and anyone who wishes to accuse me of arrogance and complacency is perfectly free to do so.
In any case, is it not somewhat soul destroying to find that after putting in a great deal of effort in the continuing pursuit of perfection (that you're never going to reach anyhow) any progress you do make leaves you still further from your objective? Obviously it's a matter for the individual student to judge, but it's not for me. Quite frankly my suspicion is that a certain amount of this 'additional stuff to learn' doesn't actually add much of real value over and above what is already being produced by a good (though not necessarily formally recognised) 'advanced' driver.
No doubt other viewpoints (seriously at odds with the above) are held in some quarters - which is absolutely fine.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
woodyTVR said:
My original question though was who does someone like Reg go to for appraisal if indeed he does? He's seen by this group as the best of the best, are we saying he doesn't need to take external guidance because he knows all there is to know?
Despite my tongue-in-cheek reply earlier in the thread, this is actually a fair question, so I'll give a more considered answer, but before I do, I'd like to make it clear that I certainly don't consider myself to be the best of the best - I've just been given the opportunity to receive training and experience that most people don't get the opportunity to receive. My primary motivation in all the stuff I do is to help people improve their skills and stay safe whilst keeping an element of enthusiasm that is lacking in some other aspects of "better" driving.I spend quite a bit of time at weekends coaching people to help them improve their driving. Some of those people have received no "further" driver training since passing their driving test. For these people, I give an introduction to systematic driving and work on improving the basics, such as smoothness, vehicle balance and speed assessment for corners.
Others have received a wide range of previous advanced driver training before coming out with me, including driving instructors, serving police officers, IAM associates, Masters students, Masters tutors, experienced competition drivers and track day instructors.
At the start of a coaching session, I always explain to more experienced drivers that I'm not going to teach them an entirely new way to drive - they won't be steering with their elbows and changing gear with their ears. Instead, these coaching sessions are more of an exchange of ideas - an opportunity for them to learn some stuff from me and also for me to learn from them. And in every single case, without exception, I learn something new from every coaching session.
I quite often incorporate demonstration drives into my coaching sessions. With the breadth of experience some of my clients have, it's very important that my own skills are at a reasonably high standard. It's also helpful for them to occasionally see you make the odd mistake, so that they're more comfortable with their own fallibility.
I'm also an examiner for the IAM, which involves having my (examining and feedback) abilities quality assured and approved on a regular basis.
But behind all that stuff is the fact that one of my primary motivations in starting the books, Youtube, coaching etc. was my own recognition that my skills had started to slip and revisiting the basics, recording my thoughts and putting them in print and online has helped me greatly in self-assessing & bringing my abilities back up towards where I think they should be.
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