Advanced Driving confuses normal motorists!!
Discussion
Let me tell you a little story:
This morning, on my usual commute to work, which is about 20 miles of mostly National Limit B road between villages (which are all 30mph), i caught a queue of 4 cars, doing approx 40-45mph. As the section i caught them up at is straight an well sighted, i had been half offside (straddling white line) for probably 500m or more on my approach, and hence could see the road was clear ahead, and an overtake was on. However, i could also see the car immediately behind the slow "follow my leader" car would probably also be looking for an overtake. Predictably, he was far too close to the lead car and had very poor visibility as a result. Hence, i didn't go "Blasting past" as i expected him to pull out in front of me. Sure enough, he pulls out (using the classic rush up behind the obsticle, swerve out whilst flooring it, and hope" overtaking technique) but i could simply back off a little and let him go. He completed his overtake, and continued to accelerate to around 85mph, which on this bit of road is a pace i would classify as a "making progress" but not mad kind of speed. So, not wishing to go much faster, i simply far followed (probably 50 to 75m behind) for a bit.
So far, so good.
However, the road narrows slightly, and dips down into a sweeping left had bend, which is still a bend you can negogiate in excess of the national limit, but one that has a T junction in the bend. Here, it is critical to ensure both that the junction is empty (no one about to pull out onto the main road) AND that no one is turning off the main road onto the smaller road and so will be braking to a much lower speed that the natural speed of the bend. As we approach this bend / junction, the car ahead has caught a Van and is probably less than 5m behind them (hence has NO visibility of anything), so i hang back, (probably still about 75m behind) and as i can see there are no on-coming traffic (the elevation of the road makes this possible) i move pretty much full offside to give me full visibility of the bend/junction and what the Van is possibly about to do. At this point i see the guy in the car ahead drop his drivers window and start to gesticulate out the window. Needless to say, his distraction("waving" at me) and his close follow of the Van results in him having to brake late and hard as the Van suddenly brakes and indicates to turn off the main road (totally predictably tbh), i stay full offside, and can now see around the corner that the road is clear on the other side. At this point, the car ahead is down to around 30ph, i am carrying a leastt 20 mph more (having started way back, and positioned for visibility / not caught up in the van turning off) so as we crest the next small rise in the road, and with a clear road ahead, i perform an overtake, which due to our differential speed and the performance of my car is over and done before you can say "coming through".....
Job done i think.
Unfortunately, unknown to me, there are temporary traffic lights in the next village, so said irate man catches back up, tailgates me (horrendously close, think <1 foot behind i estimate), waving and gesticulating some more.
when we stop for the lights (me leaving a massive gap ahead, due to his tailgating and obvious angry/ careless driving) i do what i generally never do, and get out to ask him what the problem is.
And the problem was "I was on the wrong side of the road, like dangerous maniac, into a blind corner"
Of course, you can't reason with people in these situations, so i simply asked him not to tailgate me please, and got into me car and drove off when the lights changed.
So, there you go, positioning your car so you can actually see stuff, leaving large gaps in front, and driving at a constant speed without having to brake or cause other drivers obstruction are now classed as "dangerous and maniacal" by normal drivers.
Oh, the irony.....
This morning, on my usual commute to work, which is about 20 miles of mostly National Limit B road between villages (which are all 30mph), i caught a queue of 4 cars, doing approx 40-45mph. As the section i caught them up at is straight an well sighted, i had been half offside (straddling white line) for probably 500m or more on my approach, and hence could see the road was clear ahead, and an overtake was on. However, i could also see the car immediately behind the slow "follow my leader" car would probably also be looking for an overtake. Predictably, he was far too close to the lead car and had very poor visibility as a result. Hence, i didn't go "Blasting past" as i expected him to pull out in front of me. Sure enough, he pulls out (using the classic rush up behind the obsticle, swerve out whilst flooring it, and hope" overtaking technique) but i could simply back off a little and let him go. He completed his overtake, and continued to accelerate to around 85mph, which on this bit of road is a pace i would classify as a "making progress" but not mad kind of speed. So, not wishing to go much faster, i simply far followed (probably 50 to 75m behind) for a bit.
So far, so good.
However, the road narrows slightly, and dips down into a sweeping left had bend, which is still a bend you can negogiate in excess of the national limit, but one that has a T junction in the bend. Here, it is critical to ensure both that the junction is empty (no one about to pull out onto the main road) AND that no one is turning off the main road onto the smaller road and so will be braking to a much lower speed that the natural speed of the bend. As we approach this bend / junction, the car ahead has caught a Van and is probably less than 5m behind them (hence has NO visibility of anything), so i hang back, (probably still about 75m behind) and as i can see there are no on-coming traffic (the elevation of the road makes this possible) i move pretty much full offside to give me full visibility of the bend/junction and what the Van is possibly about to do. At this point i see the guy in the car ahead drop his drivers window and start to gesticulate out the window. Needless to say, his distraction("waving" at me) and his close follow of the Van results in him having to brake late and hard as the Van suddenly brakes and indicates to turn off the main road (totally predictably tbh), i stay full offside, and can now see around the corner that the road is clear on the other side. At this point, the car ahead is down to around 30ph, i am carrying a leastt 20 mph more (having started way back, and positioned for visibility / not caught up in the van turning off) so as we crest the next small rise in the road, and with a clear road ahead, i perform an overtake, which due to our differential speed and the performance of my car is over and done before you can say "coming through".....
Job done i think.
Unfortunately, unknown to me, there are temporary traffic lights in the next village, so said irate man catches back up, tailgates me (horrendously close, think <1 foot behind i estimate), waving and gesticulating some more.
when we stop for the lights (me leaving a massive gap ahead, due to his tailgating and obvious angry/ careless driving) i do what i generally never do, and get out to ask him what the problem is.
And the problem was "I was on the wrong side of the road, like dangerous maniac, into a blind corner"
Of course, you can't reason with people in these situations, so i simply asked him not to tailgate me please, and got into me car and drove off when the lights changed.
So, there you go, positioning your car so you can actually see stuff, leaving large gaps in front, and driving at a constant speed without having to brake or cause other drivers obstruction are now classed as "dangerous and maniacal" by normal drivers.
Oh, the irony.....
I'm not sure that its ironic; in my view its almost inevitable with todays general attitude to people doing anything which doesn't comply to some sort of "norm" which with the vast majority of UK drivers means not observing, using speed inappropriately, following too closely and being aggresive..the list goes on. For these reasons I am very selective about when to use the offside and generally I dont do it if other drivers are close to me because it simply invokes too much hassle due to ignorance and not being "normal" etc - generally I would rather hang back and wait for an opportunity to overtake in a place that doesnt create the type of emotional response that you experienced. This may mean that I lose a minute or two of progress but I can live with that. The exception is when I've been around traffic cops who dont seem to take exception to people driving in a way that lets them make good and safe progress; including using the offside.
Keith
Keith
To be fair, if id know they was an additional extra set of temporary lights just up the road i would have just sat behind them. However, if you take that view, you'd never take any overtake, and would just become one of the blind sheep.........
As it was, the overtake was so handed to me on a plate i couldn't refuse it. A combination of improper and proper positioning resulted in the perfect overtake being set up, and i didn't really even need to accelerate to pass him (i did of course).
My gripe, is not actually with the other driver, who unless they had been specifically taught some more suitable advanced skills is simply ignorant that there is another, better, method for driving their car. It's more that these days, people are more likely to expend effort to admonish or insult, rather than simply pay attention to the basic task of driving...........
As it was, the overtake was so handed to me on a plate i couldn't refuse it. A combination of improper and proper positioning resulted in the perfect overtake being set up, and i didn't really even need to accelerate to pass him (i did of course).
My gripe, is not actually with the other driver, who unless they had been specifically taught some more suitable advanced skills is simply ignorant that there is another, better, method for driving their car. It's more that these days, people are more likely to expend effort to admonish or insult, rather than simply pay attention to the basic task of driving...........
I see where you made a mistake.
Getting out and talking to other road users is a big one. It can easily be seen as threatening no matter how its done, even if it's not intended to be. There is a non-zero risk of being stabbed or mutilated with a chainsaw and put piecemeal into a roadside rubbish bin at this point. Not recommended under any circumstances.
Getting out and talking to other road users is a big one. It can easily be seen as threatening no matter how its done, even if it's not intended to be. There is a non-zero risk of being stabbed or mutilated with a chainsaw and put piecemeal into a roadside rubbish bin at this point. Not recommended under any circumstances.
Isn't part of advanced driving considering the impact of your actions on other road users? If you can't see why the way you were positioning your car could seem aggressive and/or confusing to other drivers then maybe you need to build that into your planning.
Also, we're all normal motorists.
Also, we're all normal motorists.
AER said:
I see where you made a mistake.
Getting out and talking to other road users is a big one. It can easily be seen as threatening no matter how its done, even if it's not intended to be. There is a non-zero risk of being stabbed or mutilated with a chainsaw and put piecemeal into a roadside rubbish bin at this point. Not recommended under any circumstances.
I totally agree, but i had checked the guy out behind, who looked normal and not too ranty/shouty. I also had a queue of other cars in front and behind, so lots of witnesses, and i made sure he couldn't get out of his door, just in case.Getting out and talking to other road users is a big one. It can easily be seen as threatening no matter how its done, even if it's not intended to be. There is a non-zero risk of being stabbed or mutilated with a chainsaw and put piecemeal into a roadside rubbish bin at this point. Not recommended under any circumstances.
I also asked him politely to please not tail gate me, allowed him to tell his story, and we ended up agreeing to disagree and shook hands.
charltjr said:
Isn't part of advanced driving considering the impact of your actions on other road users? If you can't see why the way you were positioning your car could seem aggressive and/or confusing to other drivers then maybe you need to build that into your planning.
Also, we're all normal motorists.
Again i agree, but i'm not going to put myself at more risk just to please other less well educated motorists.Also, we're all normal motorists.
If it's safer to move offside for me, then i'm going to do just that even if it makes another clueless motorist angry.
NOTE: he had no valid reason to be angry, other than he felt, in his opinion, like i shouldn't be driving in the fashion i was driving. I didn't tailgate him, i passed him quickly, cleanly and safely. I think tbh, his ego was probably annoyed that someone had "caught him up and overtaken him" because he thought he was going pretty quickly (which he wasn't). It's the old "i'm driving as fast as i can, therefore how can it be safe for someone to go any faster" syndrome.
Unfortunately, because everyone drives a car, they think they are good at it. Take another activity, running. I can run down the street, but i can't run a 4min mile. However, it is clearly possible too run a 4min/mile, and most people, when jogging down the street, if overtaken by a faster runner, wouldn't shout angrily at them as they ran past.
Given that the other driver was maintaining circa 85mph in an NSL, did you choose to overtake as that wasn't enough for you? It's a fairly full on strategy to overtake someone who is travelling at those speeds given the reason he has slowed down is because the vehicle he is following has slowed to exit the main road. Did you not foresee how your actions could be perceived? And what would happen when he returned to his previous speed?
I put it to you, sir, that you were trying to show him how good you were.
I put it to you, sir, that you were trying to show him how good you were.
Good to see you posting in here Max, I enjoy reading a lot of what you post wrt Engines.
To me it seems like a complete lack of observation (not on your part).
Too many drivers just drive, they look at what is in front and that's all they see.
I'm in the (un?)enviable situation of teaching a learner (being a passenger) and also occasionally being a passenger in my old man's car.
The two of them on occasions scare the crap out of me, mainly due to their lack of observation and anticipation.
I've also covered 1000s of km with a 'white van man' type who generally drives like he's in a round of the WRC, but his observation and anticipation leaves little to be upset about from inside the vehicle but has on notable occasions really upset others.
No doubt in any scenario someone is going to get upset. I did a trip earlier this year, it was about 900km in a 1.2 Clio with Little Ex. The only time I got angry was when I made a lane choosing mistake at a roundabout in Wales, the lady in front could easily have pulled forward a few feet and I wouldn't have caused any problems. She never looked into her mirrors and so never spotted my mistake.
Today with my learner in town traffic I asked 'Why didn't you stop before that junction, allow the oncoming driver to turn right in front of you, then allow the car from the road on the left to turn right in front of you, why wouldn't you just allow all these people to get out of your your way and get on with their journey?'
To me it seems like a complete lack of observation (not on your part).
Too many drivers just drive, they look at what is in front and that's all they see.
I'm in the (un?)enviable situation of teaching a learner (being a passenger) and also occasionally being a passenger in my old man's car.
The two of them on occasions scare the crap out of me, mainly due to their lack of observation and anticipation.
I've also covered 1000s of km with a 'white van man' type who generally drives like he's in a round of the WRC, but his observation and anticipation leaves little to be upset about from inside the vehicle but has on notable occasions really upset others.
No doubt in any scenario someone is going to get upset. I did a trip earlier this year, it was about 900km in a 1.2 Clio with Little Ex. The only time I got angry was when I made a lane choosing mistake at a roundabout in Wales, the lady in front could easily have pulled forward a few feet and I wouldn't have caused any problems. She never looked into her mirrors and so never spotted my mistake.
Today with my learner in town traffic I asked 'Why didn't you stop before that junction, allow the oncoming driver to turn right in front of you, then allow the car from the road on the left to turn right in front of you, why wouldn't you just allow all these people to get out of your your way and get on with their journey?'
hornetrider said:
Given that the other driver was maintaining circa 85mph in an NSL, did you choose to overtake as that wasn't enough for you? It's a fairly full on strategy to overtake someone who is travelling at those speeds given the reason he has slowed down is because the vehicle he is following has slowed to exit the main road. Did you not foresee how your actions could be perceived? And what would happen when he returned to his previous speed?
Perhaps i should have been a bit clearer or described it better.The angry guy ahead only did 85 when down the straight bit of the road after he overtook the first slow car. At that as i said, i was more than happy to far follow him. However after that, because his observation was poor(and he was busy getting distracted) he was down to low speed, which mean't a pass was very easy and there for the taking. Sure i could have just followed him along the road all the way, but considering i was clearly on average going faster than he was (as i had caught him up) i don't see why i should then have to just follow him or someone like him, on the off chance they might get miffed when being overtaken! If that were the case, i'd just plod along at 40mph, just following everyone else like the rest of the sheep on that road everyday.
And the reason he was slowed down is because he didn't leave himself enough room, for observation or maneuver, whereas my road positioning mean't i could see the Van was going to turn off, so i moderated my speed early, and hence had a clear run around the bend after the van had turned off, unlike angry man, who, being right up the vans chuff only had time to nail the brakes when the van put his indicator on and "suddenly" braked.
hornetrider said:
I put it to you, sir, that you were trying to show him how good you were.
good at what? causing offense!?? ;-)Seriously, the one thing i HAVE learn as i get older is to never judge anyone else too soon. When i see another driver making progress i'll do all i can to make their drive safer and smoother. Had the guy ahead continued down the road at 85mph, which incidentally is very easy to do in a modern car (and a LOT more in fact) driving safely, smoothly and with good anticipation, i'd have sat back and enjoyed watching them do just that!
charltjr said:
Isn't part of advanced driving considering the impact of your actions on other road users? If you can't see why the way you were positioning your car could seem aggressive and/or confusing to other drivers then maybe you need to build that into your planning.
Also, we're all normal motorists.
Yes - 3rd party perception ...Also, we're all normal motorists.
However, if I took that into account too much I'd never do anything if another car was in sight ...
Funnily enough, I had a bit similar issue to the OP, A4 between Theale and Thatcham, lovely and wide, and some nice bends, which if safe I'll straighten out. Apart from keeping the car in a straight line and more stable, it actual maintains the vision ahead, which you lose if you follow the bend of the road. Nothing coming, so perfectly safe- no actual need to cross the center line as the road is so wide, that 'upto the line' is sufficient - so in fact all I am doing is using the full width of my side of the road, which is probably at least two and a half cars wide, so quite a lot a sideways movement is possible. (If something is approaching, I'll keep away from it as much as possible).
Flash-flash from the car behind - at first I had no idea why, then on the next bit I straightened out flash-flash ... I've only one more bend now anyway, so I continue as before ... flash-flash-flash-flash-flash ....
Couple of roundabouts later, I turn right, I see in my mirror mr. muppet gesticulating at me - smack, straight into the kerb (him, I hasten to add, not me).
Oh, well, he was the one driving without due-care-and -attention, and misuse of lights ...
Edited by mph999 on Monday 24th October 19:27
Edited by mph999 on Monday 24th October 19:27
pim said:
His 85 mile a hr driving so safely might have cost him 100 quid and three points.
Only in conjunction with a complete failure of observation! (ie, failing to spot the police car, camera van or fixed camera etc, which, lets be honest, generally aren't exactly "well hidden" now are they.........)Just so I understand this, you planned to overtake four cars at once, and then another two on a bend with a junction? And you're patting yourself on the back for your driving? Sorry, far too many things could have gone wrong with those manoeuvres, it's not something I'd have done.
That being said, it's hard to visualise everything purely from your description, and I wasn't there.
That being said, it's hard to visualise everything purely from your description, and I wasn't there.
I can see where the OP is coming from but the reaction has to be expected - does causing that reaction make your actions sub-advanced? Probably but that only matters if you care!
It's not the BTC out there, there's many an occasion where anticipating a corners exit view means you can out brake or out accelerate someone because of their own poor decision but doesn't mean you should. It was clear that once the van had gone he'd be back up to speed. Moving to full offside of the road to see better is always going to upset someone in front especially if they've been moving at speed - it seems aggressive. Drop back and slow down or expect the hand gestures. Perform the overtake on the straight like a normal [sic] driver and you won't get the same reaction.
My understanding of 'advanced' driving, is to progress as easily and safely without causing alarm to anyone else. If your driving is causing other drivers to give hand gestures it maybe needs a rethink if the hand gestures offend - the tailgating was always going to happen as you'd observed it before you passed him so why expect your bumper to be any different?!
For what it's worth I'd have probably done the same as the OP except I wouldn't have got out of the car at the lights. It's amazing how quickly a quick rant can turn into a criminal record!
It's not the BTC out there, there's many an occasion where anticipating a corners exit view means you can out brake or out accelerate someone because of their own poor decision but doesn't mean you should. It was clear that once the van had gone he'd be back up to speed. Moving to full offside of the road to see better is always going to upset someone in front especially if they've been moving at speed - it seems aggressive. Drop back and slow down or expect the hand gestures. Perform the overtake on the straight like a normal [sic] driver and you won't get the same reaction.
My understanding of 'advanced' driving, is to progress as easily and safely without causing alarm to anyone else. If your driving is causing other drivers to give hand gestures it maybe needs a rethink if the hand gestures offend - the tailgating was always going to happen as you'd observed it before you passed him so why expect your bumper to be any different?!
For what it's worth I'd have probably done the same as the OP except I wouldn't have got out of the car at the lights. It's amazing how quickly a quick rant can turn into a criminal record!
In summary: from what you've said you 'had him' and he didn't like it. I wager he wasn't really angry about you being on the wrong side of the road, although he may have thought it was a little aggressive of you. He was upset about being overtaken.
From the data available, I'd have let him stay ahead of me if his driving looked a little suspect, it sounds like he was making good progress in general apart from having to slow for the van turning (yes, because he didn't have the observation skills). I'd rather he crashed into somebody else than try something else behind/into me later down the road, especially if I knew there was a village coming up in the next mile or two.
From the data available, I'd have let him stay ahead of me if his driving looked a little suspect, it sounds like he was making good progress in general apart from having to slow for the van turning (yes, because he didn't have the observation skills). I'd rather he crashed into somebody else than try something else behind/into me later down the road, especially if I knew there was a village coming up in the next mile or two.
Gassing Station | Advanced Driving | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff