Re: Suggestion for Advanced Driving Course

[mattf93]

Hi Guys,

My work (super car/prestige car place) have asked me to look into advanced driving courses to reduce their insurance and to make me a better driver (as I am only 22).

Are there any pointers in relation to IAM/Rospa or any alternatives?

Any further advice any of you older an wiser drivers can offer me?

Many Thanks in advance.

[dvenman]

Look for your local IAM / RoSPA group ( https://www.iamroadsmart.com/local-groups or https://www.roadar.org.uk/groups/).

They're probably the best intro to systematic / advanced driving and there are options beyond that - but they really require a decent level of driving before you head onto that.

John Lyon is still running AD courses too - http://www.john-lyon.com/ - which may also be of interest.

[watchnut]

Hey Matt....maybe your company should be doing that for you as part of their "health and safety" thing?....seeing that they want you to drive their cars?

If your really into driving, and the company is paying...do both IAM and ROSPA. (For me ROSPA test is better) However don't expect either to help with insurance discounts....some companies recognise "pass plus" but not advanced driving certificates

good luck

[SVS]

If your company is paying, then I'd do a 1-2 day Fleet training course with the IAM or RoSPA. This offers the advantage of getting started with proper professional instruction (i.e. someone with a Fleet Training instructor qualification and experience).

If you like it, and want to achieve an advanced standard, then you can follow up by joining a local IAM or RoSPA group.

[CABC]

not a fluffy instructor at all..... road stuff at bottom of site
http://drivertuition.com/track.htm
some supercar clubs use him for road craft tuition for new members

[Reg Local]

CABC said:

not a fluffy instructor at all..... road stuff at bottom of site
http://drivertuition.com/track.htm
some supercar clubs use him for road craft tuition for new members

I hope his instructional methods are a little less cluttered than his website.

[CABC]

Reg Local said:

I hope his instructional methods are a little less cluttered than his website.

Think he gets work via referral, because hit website is....not good.

[waremark]

CABC said:

not a fluffy instructor at all..... road stuff at bottom of site
http://drivertuition.com/track.htm
some supercar clubs use him for road craft tuition for new members

On a page about track driving, this is all I found about the road:

"ROAD: If you take one of our road sessions first you will see how road skills can be further honed and track skills can feed back to great advantage into your daily drive. If you want to use your own car and take trackday insurance, having us instructing you for the day will usually reduce your premium (Give us a call), so that the instruction cost is, in effect, significantly reduced."

This sounds a fundamentally unsuitable place to go to if you want find out how to exploit a high performance car on the road - which is 95% about roadcraft, 5% about car handling (just put numbers in so people can have an argument about them!).

[waremark]

There is a sticky thread at the top of this forum called Advanced Driving Links. Unfortunately some of the suggestions are no longer current, but it would still be a starting point if looking for commercial options instead of the charities IAM and Rospa. On the whole commercial options may be better suited to people who have more money than time available to improve their driving.

[instructormike]

waremark said:

CABC said:

not a fluffy instructor at all..... road stuff at bottom of site
http://drivertuition.com/track.htm
some supercar clubs use him for road craft tuition for new members

On a page about track driving, this is all I found about the road:

"ROAD: If you take one of our road sessions first you will see how road skills can be further honed and track skills can feed back to great advantage into your daily drive. If you want to use your own car and take trackday insurance, having us instructing you for the day will usually reduce your premium (Give us a call), so that the instruction cost is, in effect, significantly reduced."

This sounds a fundamentally unsuitable place to go to if you want find out how to exploit a high performance car on the road - which is 95% about roadcraft, 5% about car handling (just put numbers in so people can have an argument about them!).

Just thought I would respond, being the object but not the perpetrator of the posts.

1. My "cluttered site" has been gathering clients over the last ten or so years. It actively filters enquiries. If readers don't like the ethos of what they read then they are probably not the type of person who ultimately values content of instruction over gloss of presentation. The content attracts google as well, hence it's high positioning in searches that are relevant to what is delivered. If I de-cluttered it this would reduce. 90% of enquiries turn to business. I thus gain quality enquiries from serious and intelligent people: VERY few from idiots - maybe 1 a month. I have far more work than time for the work my site generates. Perhaps cluttered sites are the way to go. There is looking and there is seeing. We can all look at the same developing scene. What we each see is sometimes very different.
2. IF roads are a fundamentally unsuitable place to teach how to drive a performance car then they are fundamentally an unsuitable place to actively drive the self same car as an owner. Road and track skills are fundamentally the same. Your need to understand how what you do alters your understanding of - and ability to manage - you, your car and the environment that you may vector the car in to, both forwards and backwards. If you read the site -as a potential client rather than as one in any other role - you will see that off-road practice becomes a natural development path from the road drive training. Multi day training requires me to be happy with the client and the client happy with me before we proceed to track. This is important, as anyone who has ever had an idiot on track will start to nod their head at. Road traffic regulations are an excellent place to start with regards to reigning in a less than considerate drive.
3. It's very easy to look for what you don't agree with. Instead look for the common strengths rather than the divisive differences: A bit like religion....

oh, I don't do posts. I don't have the time. Which is why I had to re-register as a Pistonheads identity just recently.
So that's it for another year or two! Any thoughts or questions talk to me rather than about me. Call me old fashioned - because I am :-)

Postscript: My number one aim in any training is a safer driver. (This is not exclusive-or to quicker or smoother). I support anyone and everyone out there that makes our roads and our drivers safer. Just come back from instructing at Zolder this afternoon and seen a serious RTI on the A20 with, from the look of the mangled metalwork that was once a car - and a foreign truck - a likely fatality. We all do a job: Differently no doubt, we may not agree on specifics but we all agree on safety fundamentals. Personally I have been teaching vehicle driving for over 20 years, have a Postgrad in teaching backed by 12 years teaching and running departments and a rare DFE Ofsted certificate of recognition of being a first class teacher: a DSA A grading (Formerly grade 6) only 1 point off perfect for ADI and fleet driving assessment for my DSA badge and an honours Physics degree to back up the dynamics lesson w.r.t car behaviour. Several years instructing for Porsche, Palmersport and with every UK trackday organiser and on every UK track and also most European ones, ARDS through MSV and have worked in protective situations in some rather unpleasant places -watch 13 hours if you want an idea: Having situations like having to extracate a group from an active minefield and also situations with such as an AK pointed at you with intent - I have half an idea how to deal with stressful situations. I also have three wizened experts in their field at hand to constructively criticise what I do, who have all done that to me in my cars in the last twelve months.

Thanks
Mike Cooper

pps there are many grammatical errors and at least two typos above. Of course you can look for them, or perhaps, instead, absorb the sentiment :-) I'm not going to edit this.

[Reg Local]

Chill your beef Mike - it's only the internet.

Reg Local

Cycling proficiency level 2, ex banana weigher for Morrisons, green & red stripes (width and length) grade 2 piano, once disarmed a very angry child wielding a lolly stick.

Edited by Reg Local on Thursday 22 September 23:55

[akirk]

instructormike said:

If readers don't like the ethos of what they read then they are probably not the type of person who ultimately values content of instruction over gloss of presentation.

really?
actually, what it says to me as a potential customer is that your company doesn't value your client enough to make it easy for me to understand what you offer / to lead me through the thought process and come out seeing that you can offer me a way of moving forwards as a driver...

instructormike said:

The content attracts google as well, hence it's high positioning in searches that are relevant to what is delivered. If I de-cluttered it this would reduce. 90% of enquiries turn to business. I thus gain quality enquiries from serious and intelligent people: VERY few from idiots - maybe 1 a month.

Glad to hear that, you do know that Google penalises websites which are not mobile friendly, when searched from a mobile?
And that what you see in Google will not be what others see - so your seeing it high up is not necessarily indicative of other results...
https://www.google.co.uk/webmasters/tools/mobile-f...
Seems that Google finds it quite mobile unfriendly...

You might also want to try:
https://developers.google.com/speed/pagespeed/insi...
Where it gets:
65/100 for user experience on mobile
33/100 for speed on mobile
14/100 on the desktop

instructormike said:

I thus gain quality enquiries from serious and intelligent people: VERY few from idiots - maybe 1 a month.

By implication anyone on here who disagrees with you is an idiot - great way to impress your potential audience?!

instructormike said:

I have far more work than time for the work my site generates.

That is great, however you have lost one potential customer here...

instructormike said:

Perhaps cluttered sites are the way to go. There is looking and there is seeing. We can all look at the same developing scene. What we each see is sometimes very different.

Certainly what we see is different - you see a perfect website, no-one else does...
Had you simply said "yes, a bit cluttered but works for me, I get plenty of work" that might have been different, but your reply does appear (maybe unintentionally) to be a bit arrogant and dismissive... it is also factually wrong...

It is also worth noting that were someone else to start an equivalent business with a google optimised website targeting the same searches, yours may be demoted... success now, is no guarantee of success in the future...


looking through the site - though most of it is too difficult to read...
some interesting claims:

instructorMikesWebsite said:

We believe that our road course is the best civilian road training course available in the UK

instructorMikesWebsite said:

For Road: To take the drive to a level consistent with class 1 Police driving standards. Although Police training can involve up to 11 weeks of training we introduce all of the significant safety and management strategies employed in driving a vehicle on public roads with maximum safety and full appreciation of limits and risk.

So, the best civilian course in the UK?! really - I can think of others which might challenge that claim...
Equivalent to class 1 Police driving standards (which takes 11 weeks) yet you do it in 3 days! wow - it really must be the best course in the UK...
...yet the person you quote at the top of that page has done the course and is still struggling with crossing hands on the steering wheel, and overtaking... mmm, maybe not quite class 1 police standards yet...

Edited by akirk on Tuesday 27th September 22:39

[instructormike]

Quad erat demonstrandum, demonstratus est. What the speaker says of the topic often says more of the speaker than the topic. This is the internet,as RegLocal kindly pointed out. A decent chap it would appear who does decent work. I reacted to a post that my site stats have flagged up as generating traffic, perhaps in an unfair way. Tired, just back from a 14hr drive from Zolder and being defensive of what I would like to think is my good name. Call me human but that's how it is.

You are a strategic web consultant, with a website generating 24 unique visits a day to your web design website, 1/3 of the level of my traffic and I am a driver trainer, not an IT bloke and not actively targeting traffic. This kind of use of data is unfair as I don't know you. But factual. I do what I do. You do what you do. Only consider judging if you have all relevant, pertinent facts. You are you and your website says something about you. BUT not all about you. Likewise me. You are an IT expert, it would appear. I am just a bod that sits in a seat next to a person who can (sort of) drive and proffers suggestions for improvement, then puts words on my site to try and allude to the kind of things that I do. Try not to be polemic, it's not good for the soul. If you want my help, talk to me; if not, that's perfectly fine. Das ist leben.
Anyway. I'm off to the 'ring to keep someone alive and enable them to enjoy the best track in the world. So, I'm signing off for another year. Viel Spass.
MC

[akirk]

instructormike said:

Quad erat demonstrandum, demonstratus est. What the speaker says of the topic often says more of the speaker than the topic. This is the internet,as RegLocal kindly pointed out. A decent chap it would appear who does decent work. I reacted to a post that my site stats have flagged up as generating traffic, perhaps in an unfair way. Tired, just back from a 14hr drive from Zolder and being defensive of what I would like to think is my good name. Call me human but that's how it is.

You are a strategic web consultant, with a website generating 24 unique visits a day to your web design website, 1/3 of the level of my traffic and I am a driver trainer, not an IT bloke and not actively targeting traffic. This kind of use of data is unfair as I don't know you. But factual. I do what I do. You do what you do. Only consider judging if you have all relevant, pertinent facts. You are you and your website says something about you. BUT not all about you. Likewise me. You are an IT expert, it would appear. I am just a bod that sits in a seat next to a person who can (sort of) drive and proffers suggestions for improvement, then puts words on my site to try and allude to the kind of things that I do. Try not to be polemic, it's not good for the soul. If you want my help, talk to me; if not, that's perfectly fine. Das ist leben.
Anyway. I'm off to the 'ring to keep someone alive and enable them to enjoy the best track in the world. So, I'm signing off for another year. Viel Spass.
MC

mmm - my suggestion was simply that a) you might wish to consider how the website comes across on mobile as Google thinks it is poor, so you will be losing some people... and b) that perhaps the way in which you responded wasn't constructive - had you simply said, 'yup cluttered but works for us' then that would have looked good instead of getting defensive and arrogant about it - I have no issue with websites which work for a business not following the latest fashion or pattern - no point wasting money updating if it is not needed - some of the most commercial websites break a number of 'style rules', but they work for those companies... I included the links to the tools because you seemed convinced that your website is perfect, and Google's perspective is perhaps different...

As for our site generating 24 unique visitors a day - I am fascinated that you feel you have any idea at all without looking at my server logs - as I own the server I might just have a slightly more accurate understanding but, fine - you are happy and not worried about how you come across - that is great, as I said above, it is a shame as you have lost one potential client here - maybe you don't care, that is also fine! - Enjoy your trip.

[mattf93]

instructormike said:

Just thought I would respond, being the object but not the perpetrator of the posts.

1. My "cluttered site" has been gathering clients over the last ten or so years. It actively filters enquiries. If readers don't like the ethos of what they read then they are probably not the type of person who ultimately values content of instruction over gloss of presentation. The content attracts google as well, hence it's high positioning in searches that are relevant to what is delivered. If I de-cluttered it this would reduce. 90% of enquiries turn to business. I thus gain quality enquiries from serious and intelligent people: VERY few from idiots - maybe 1 a month. I have far more work than time for the work my site generates. Perhaps cluttered sites are the way to go. There is looking and there is seeing. We can all look at the same developing scene. What we each see is sometimes very different.
2. IF roads are a fundamentally unsuitable place to teach how to drive a performance car then they are fundamentally an unsuitable place to actively drive the self same car as an owner. Road and track skills are fundamentally the same. Your need to understand how what you do alters your understanding of - and ability to manage - you, your car and the environment that you may vector the car in to, both forwards and backwards. If you read the site -as a potential client rather than as one in any other role - you will see that off-road practice becomes a natural development path from the road drive training. Multi day training requires me to be happy with the client and the client happy with me before we proceed to track. This is important, as anyone who has ever had an idiot on track will start to nod their head at. Road traffic regulations are an excellent place to start with regards to reigning in a less than considerate drive.
3. It's very easy to look for what you don't agree with. Instead look for the common strengths rather than the divisive differences: A bit like religion....

oh, I don't do posts. I don't have the time. Which is why I had to re-register as a Pistonheads identity just recently.
So that's it for another year or two! Any thoughts or questions talk to me rather than about me. Call me old fashioned - because I am :-)

Postscript: My number one aim in any training is a safer driver. (This is not exclusive-or to quicker or smoother). I support anyone and everyone out there that makes our roads and our drivers safer. Just come back from instructing at Zolder this afternoon and seen a serious RTI on the A20 with, from the look of the mangled metalwork that was once a car - and a foreign truck - a likely fatality. We all do a job: Differently no doubt, we may not agree on specifics but we all agree on safety fundamentals. Personally I have been teaching vehicle driving for over 20 years, have a Postgrad in teaching backed by 12 years teaching and running departments and a rare DFE Ofsted certificate of recognition of being a first class teacher: a DSA A grading (Formerly grade 6) only 1 point off perfect for ADI and fleet driving assessment for my DSA badge and an honours Physics degree to back up the dynamics lesson w.r.t car behaviour. Several years instructing for Porsche, Palmersport and with every UK trackday organiser and on every UK track and also most European ones, ARDS through MSV and have worked in protective situations in some rather unpleasant places -watch 13 hours if you want an idea: Having situations like having to extracate a group from an active minefield and also situations with such as an AK pointed at you with intent - I have half an idea how to deal with stressful situations. I also have three wizened experts in their field at hand to constructively criticise what I do, who have all done that to me in my cars in the last twelve months.

Thanks
Mike Cooper

pps there are many grammatical errors and at least two typos above. Of course you can look for them, or perhaps, instead, absorb the sentiment :-) I'm not going to edit this.

My 2 pennies:

As a prospective customer Id say that its good you are passionate about what you do, and you have good success, however you almost are coming across as arrogant in the way you are being defensive.

In regards to your website as a young (22 years young) Id say its terrible, sorry.

To me it doesn't read coherently or logically. Also any corporate body wishing to send drivers for training would find it difficult to navigate the website quickly - and to everyone time = money.
If it read more logically/had a better layout I think you would gain far more website traffic and far more leads (even if you are happy how its running at the moment).

Please don't think I'm being vindictive just my honest opinion.

[jaf01uk]

akirk said:

instructormike said:

For Road: To take the drive to a level consistent with class 1 Police driving standards. Although Police training can involve up to 11 weeks of training we introduce all of the significant safety and management strategies employed in driving a vehicle on public roads with maximum safety and full appreciation of limits and risk.

So, the best civilian course in the UK?! really - I can think of others which might challenge that claim...
Equivalent to class 1 Police driving standards (which takes 11 weeks) yet you do it in 3 days! wow - it really must be the best course in the UK...
...yet the person you quote at the top of that page has done the course and is still struggling with crossing hands on the steering wheel, and overtaking... mmm, maybe not quite class 1 police standards yet...

Edited by akirk on Tuesday 27th September 22:39

This is the major apprehension I have regarding these miraculous "learn advance driving in a half day" claims of a lot of these companies, it is impossible to teach roadcraft style systematic driving in half or indeed 3 days!
Gary

[instructormike]

jaf01uk said:

akirk said:

instructormike said:

For Road: To take the drive to a level consistent with class 1 Police driving standards. Although Police training can involve up to 11 weeks of training we introduce all of the significant safety and management strategies employed in driving a vehicle on public roads with maximum safety and full appreciation of limits and risk.

So, the best civilian course in the UK?! really - I can think of others which might challenge that claim...
Equivalent to class 1 Police driving standards (which takes 11 weeks) yet you do it in 3 days! wow - it really must be the best course in the UK...
...yet the person you quote at the top of that page has done the course and is still struggling with crossing hands on the steering wheel, and overtaking... mmm, maybe not quite class 1 police standards yet...

Edited by akirk on Tuesday 27th September 22:39

This is the major apprehension I have regarding these miraculous "learn advance driving in a half day" claims of a lot of these companies, it is impossible to teach roadcraft style systematic driving in half or indeed 3 days!
Gary

There will never be consensus on "advanced driving", as there are too many views of what "advanced" means. IF we improve appreciation of risk, dynamics, psychology and self - from a pragmatic perspective - then we have helped to develop the driver to a "better place". Class 1 is not "perfect", a top race driver is not "perfect", nothing is. It's the appreciation of the fact you are on a scale is that which makes the metaphorical journey worthwhile. It's not roadcraft that is the key, it's the act of reading it, the interrogative. You don't teach roadcraft, you introduce value-driven approaches that the driver sees the value of. We are educators, literally meaning to lead from a position of less understanding/appreciation to more, not all. You don't learn Tai Chi, you come to understand it's core underpinnings and reason. So it is with driving. Which is why chasing 0-60 times with PDK, lane assist and all the other plethora of vehicle aids is the equivalent of developing night vision systems to enable you to drive up that blind alley :-) Pointless.

[7db]

I find it's often helpful to imagine being trapped in car for 4 hours with a poster when reading a post.

[JonV8V]

7db said:

I find it's often helpful to imagine being trapped in car for 4 hours with a poster when reading a post.

If we're talking about Mike, then I've been trapped with him for nearly 7 and its not bad.

I was looking for someone that would give me probably 3 or 4 things to think about when driving. I didn't want someone with adenoids, I didn't want someone that did it by the book going back to the absolute basics of brake, gear, steer or whatever as totally isolated stages, but someone that looked at where you are and picked up on the detail and helped interpret what was happening. Its like a chef that adds a bit more flour because they know the mix is wrong, rather than someone that weighs 250g exactly and applies no deeper understanding - read any of his stuff about yaw (which can become a physics lesson) that you'll see. Then throw in a handful of pointers on defensive driving techniques, psychology of other drivers, how to read them as well as the road, all of which is done to a greater or lesser extent depending on your weaknesses.

To be on here and be thinking of advanced tuition you're almost certainly capable of a degree of car craft. But which of the many things you could be working on, should you be working on? Which will give you the best reward? You can feel car balance at 30 mph and how it responds to your inputs, understanding that better and how to manage it better puts you in good stead for doing 50mph and 70.. Or maybe you're the type who doesn't undertand why you get more under steer the faster you drive?

I also find it funny that someone criticises someones website when its just one, and probably the least prevalent mechanism for generating business. That's the sign of a true consultant that only has one string to their bow.

Do you want fast to feel fast, or do you want fast to feel slow? The latter is most harder to achieve.

[fatboy18]

How much do these advanced driving courses cost? I have recently been asked if I have any Advanced driving certificates when getting estimates for car insurance. Im trying to work out whether the cost of the instructions and test is worth shelling out for to reduce motor insurance?