Overtaking in corners - why the objection?
Discussion
I try not to upset or cause offence to other motorists even when "making progress" or whatever it should be called. Mostly, I don't receive any overt expressions of negative emotion apart from in one scenario - overtaking (safely) through corners. It seems to be such a predictable event I wonder if either I can do something to address it or if the average motorist simply considers it to be heinous without thinking about it in any more depth.
Earlier, for example, I was following a Ford Focus which was being driven under or at the speed limit and was slowing excessively for most corners. We approached a section of road which had a fairly steep descent followed by a right then left hand corner and then a steep ascent. The whole section was well sighted and there were no entrances or other hazards. I moved offside before the series of corners but the Focus driver moved across the centre lines; my assessment was that the driver hadn't seen me so I stayed there and then he suddenly pulled to the nearside indicating he had seen me. I then accelerated past him through the final corner during which I received a load of abuse from a prolonged horn blast etc.
To be clear I did not cross a solid white line and in my view the overtake was entirely safe once it could be established that the driver of the Focus had seen me. I get this on other roads when I make similar overtaking manoeuvres. Am I doing something wrong here or should I just accept that some drivers will view such overtakes as being dangerous? John Lyon taught me I should use the horn and/or main beams prior to executing these sorts of overtakes but my concern is that this may cause more hassle...
Earlier, for example, I was following a Ford Focus which was being driven under or at the speed limit and was slowing excessively for most corners. We approached a section of road which had a fairly steep descent followed by a right then left hand corner and then a steep ascent. The whole section was well sighted and there were no entrances or other hazards. I moved offside before the series of corners but the Focus driver moved across the centre lines; my assessment was that the driver hadn't seen me so I stayed there and then he suddenly pulled to the nearside indicating he had seen me. I then accelerated past him through the final corner during which I received a load of abuse from a prolonged horn blast etc.
To be clear I did not cross a solid white line and in my view the overtake was entirely safe once it could be established that the driver of the Focus had seen me. I get this on other roads when I make similar overtaking manoeuvres. Am I doing something wrong here or should I just accept that some drivers will view such overtakes as being dangerous? John Lyon taught me I should use the horn and/or main beams prior to executing these sorts of overtakes but my concern is that this may cause more hassle...
Edited by DocSteve on Sunday 28th August 01:30
Overtaking in corners is bad.
That's what the sheep believe, and those who don't understand about sight lines, etc.
Therefore you'll get abuse for it anyway. I remember a spectacular 5 car and tractor overtake I pulled off on a seriously twisty but amazingly sighted Dorset B road. Absolutely nobody in the convoy behind the tractor had even looked so I went for it!
That's what the sheep believe, and those who don't understand about sight lines, etc.
Therefore you'll get abuse for it anyway. I remember a spectacular 5 car and tractor overtake I pulled off on a seriously twisty but amazingly sighted Dorset B road. Absolutely nobody in the convoy behind the tractor had even looked so I went for it!
you certainly need to be confident the front car won't himself straighten the line and cross the dotted whites himself.
remember that everyone wants to kill you, act accordingly.
give yourself a little extra margin.
have you really seen everything? not just the road, but farm gates etc overtaking through curves can lead to a little target fixation as you concentrate on a more complex manoeuvre.
position your car clearly and indicate early.
logically, with a clear view it shouldn't be hard for everyone involved. Rightly or wrongly it can annoy though.
remember that everyone wants to kill you, act accordingly.
give yourself a little extra margin.
have you really seen everything? not just the road, but farm gates etc overtaking through curves can lead to a little target fixation as you concentrate on a more complex manoeuvre.
position your car clearly and indicate early.
logically, with a clear view it shouldn't be hard for everyone involved. Rightly or wrongly it can annoy though.
OK, I'll bite...
How well-sighted should a corner be before it is well-sighted enough overtake on?
If you're on a racing track, absolutely no obstacles to hide anything on the corner, then it's safe... but also expected, near mandatory.
If you're on a road where you can see there's nothing of a car's height or taller coming the other way, you probably won't come off worse than anything you hit that's less than that height (cyclist changing a tyre? Pedestrian tieing a shoelace? Random sheep? A child?)
If you're on a road where you are relying on gaps in the vegetation for "well-sighted", then you are leaving yourself open to your brain not having identified something that is actually there.
You also have to contend with the obstacle you can see - the person in front of you could be one of those alarmingly common lazy gits who cannot take a corner without crossing the centreline of the road, whereas fewer people veer around on a straight.
How well-sighted should a corner be before it is well-sighted enough overtake on?
If you're on a racing track, absolutely no obstacles to hide anything on the corner, then it's safe... but also expected, near mandatory.
If you're on a road where you can see there's nothing of a car's height or taller coming the other way, you probably won't come off worse than anything you hit that's less than that height (cyclist changing a tyre? Pedestrian tieing a shoelace? Random sheep? A child?)
If you're on a road where you are relying on gaps in the vegetation for "well-sighted", then you are leaving yourself open to your brain not having identified something that is actually there.
You also have to contend with the obstacle you can see - the person in front of you could be one of those alarmingly common lazy gits who cannot take a corner without crossing the centreline of the road, whereas fewer people veer around on a straight.
donkmeister said:
You also have to contend with the obstacle you can see - the person in front of you could be one of those alarmingly common lazy gits who cannot take a corner without crossing the centreline of the road,
the laziness would be him not being aware of what's behind. if it's a good overtake stretch then it's fine for him to cross the dotted whites himself, and i think most cars would. If overtaking you need to be sure he's seen you and knows your intent.donkmeister said:
OK, I'll bite...
How well-sighted should a corner be before it is well-sighted enough overtake on?
If you're on a racing track, absolutely no obstacles to hide anything on the corner, then it's safe... but also expected, near mandatory.
If you're on a road where you can see there's nothing of a car's height or taller coming the other way, you probably won't come off worse than anything you hit that's less than that height (cyclist changing a tyre? Pedestrian tieing a shoelace? Random sheep? A child?)
If you're on a road where you are relying on gaps in the vegetation for "well-sighted", then you are leaving yourself open to your brain not having identified something that is actually there.
You also have to contend with the obstacle you can see - the person in front of you could be one of those alarmingly common lazy gits who cannot take a corner without crossing the centreline of the road, whereas fewer people veer around on a straight.
I think you're referring to in your first paragraph as what might be called the "dead space" - for good reason. Fully agree with this and I would not entertain taking the risk of entering an such an area. How well-sighted should a corner be before it is well-sighted enough overtake on?
If you're on a racing track, absolutely no obstacles to hide anything on the corner, then it's safe... but also expected, near mandatory.
If you're on a road where you can see there's nothing of a car's height or taller coming the other way, you probably won't come off worse than anything you hit that's less than that height (cyclist changing a tyre? Pedestrian tieing a shoelace? Random sheep? A child?)
If you're on a road where you are relying on gaps in the vegetation for "well-sighted", then you are leaving yourself open to your brain not having identified something that is actually there.
You also have to contend with the obstacle you can see - the person in front of you could be one of those alarmingly common lazy gits who cannot take a corner without crossing the centreline of the road, whereas fewer people veer around on a straight.
In the second paragraph, I usually try and gauge if the driver has seen me - in the example above it was clear they had after they "cut" the first bend without looking behind them. This is why I raised the question about using the horn/main beams prior to the overtake; personally, I think it will antagonise people more....
The conclusion appears to be that, at least in the UK, people will simply find it offensive regardless of whether it is safe or not.
If you aren't a very interested driver, your instructor will likely have dumbed down the relevant part of the highway code:
The Highway Code said:
Rule 166
DO NOT overtake if there is any doubt, or where you cannot see far enough ahead to be sure it is safe. For example, when you are approaching
a corner or bend
a hump bridge
the brow of a hill.
To "Don't overtake on a corner, hump-bridge or brow of a hill" to avoid having to discuss limit points and such. DO NOT overtake if there is any doubt, or where you cannot see far enough ahead to be sure it is safe. For example, when you are approaching
a corner or bend
a hump bridge
the brow of a hill.
Because it's safer to wait for a straight section and the few minutes you have to find one are worth not killing someone who isn't expecting you to overtake.
I say this as a motorcyclist and a race licence holder, if you want to overtake on a corner the craners at donington are a much better bet- we're all using public roads to get somewhere and no one journey is more important than anyone elses.
I say this as a motorcyclist and a race licence holder, if you want to overtake on a corner the craners at donington are a much better bet- we're all using public roads to get somewhere and no one journey is more important than anyone elses.
A500leroy said:
Because it's safer to wait for a straight section and the few minutes you have to find one are worth not killing someone who isn't expecting you to overtake.
I say this as a motorcyclist and a race licence holder, if you want to overtake on a corner the craners at donington are a much better bet- we're all using public roads to get somewhere and no one journey is more important than anyone elses.
I'm not sure why you think the manoeuvre I described is dangerous or why you assert that overtaking in corners on the public road is dangerous per se. If the driver being overtaken has seen you and the rest of the overtake is safe then I don't think it is unsafe. What it appears to do is antagonise people and vonhosen's point is also quite relevant should there be an incident that you are caught up in later on. On the particular stretch of road I was on it was one of the best sighted areas to overtake - there were few straights that weren't adorned with entrances and small side roads (which I expect a lot of drivers would not consider when overtaking, assuming that the clear straight on the road they were travelling on was sufficient to make a safe overtake). I say this as a motorcyclist and a race licence holder, if you want to overtake on a corner the craners at donington are a much better bet- we're all using public roads to get somewhere and no one journey is more important than anyone elses.
I will reflect on the matter and perhaps try not to antagonise people by doing it but, I cannot agree with you that it is unsafe. I say this having completed HPC and having done a fair amount of track work. My ARDS test is looming however so I should perhaps not speak too soon.... !
Incidentally, I will at least agree with you that the craner curves are excellent :-)
Just trying to keep you safe! Life's short enough as is without dying because you couldn't wait a few minutes longer to complete your journey.
To put it another way, if you did it on a driving test,would you pass?
Hope I haven't caused any offence and yes you will enjoy donington very much ( little tip book a track day there in December when it slippy!)
To put it another way, if you did it on a driving test,would you pass?
Hope I haven't caused any offence and yes you will enjoy donington very much ( little tip book a track day there in December when it slippy!)
A500leroy said:
Just trying to keep you safe! Life's short enough as is without dying because you couldn't wait a few minutes longer to complete your journey.
To put it another way, if you did it on a driving test,would you pass?
Hope I haven't caused any offence and yes you will enjoy donington very much ( little tip book a track day there in December when it slippy!)
No office taken - the forum is for debating and discussing differing views so I don't take it personally! I think we may just have to agree to disagree that it is unsafe per se. I am not sure about the doing it on the driving test.... I would not expect the average novice driver to consider all of the relevant factors that dictate whether an overtake is safe or not and therefore I would expect their threshold for overtaking to be higher. I'm not sure why it would result in a fail, if carefully and legally executed, although I expect the examiner's eyebrows may touch the roof lining :-) To put it another way, if you did it on a driving test,would you pass?
Hope I haven't caused any offence and yes you will enjoy donington very much ( little tip book a track day there in December when it slippy!)
I don't live far away from Donington so it's one of my favourite tracks but oddly I have not yet been when it's wet. My track car is a handful in the wet and some tracks certainly appear to get slipper than others. Hopefully I won't do what someone in a race prepped Evo did on the last track day there I was at - put it in the barriers opposite the pit straight!
I'll overtake on curves if I'm 100% sure it's clear, safe to do so, and also I'm sure of the reaction of the driver I'm going past. Nothing wrong with it at all.
Bends are a different matter - I'll take the overtake but I'll apply an even more rigorous test of the overtaking criteria before going for it.
And when one can be called a w
ker for two perfectly safe overtakes on straight pieces of road, I can see how those looking less far ahead may have an issue with it. But it's their issue, not mine.
Bends are a different matter - I'll take the overtake but I'll apply an even more rigorous test of the overtaking criteria before going for it.
And when one can be called a w
ker for two perfectly safe overtakes on straight pieces of road, I can see how those looking less far ahead may have an issue with it. But it's their issue, not mine.A500leroy said:
Just trying to keep you safe! Life's short enough as is without dying because you couldn't wait a few minutes longer to complete your journey.
To put it another way, if you did it on a driving test,would you pass?
Hope I haven't caused any offence and yes you will enjoy donington very much ( little tip book a track day there in December when it slippy!)
But you aren't explaining why it's necessarily safer to wait for the straight stretch (and therefore be closer to the next bend when you pull in).To put it another way, if you did it on a driving test,would you pass?
Hope I haven't caused any offence and yes you will enjoy donington very much ( little tip book a track day there in December when it slippy!)
If the overtake is done safely of course you could do it on a driving test, what rule is it breaking?
I've done it one a ROSPA test and the examiner said 'nice one'.
You tend to get a similar reaction when you overtake when there IS a car coming the otherway!
What i mean by this is that say on a long straight you can see a car coming, once you've judged there is plenty of time to pull out and complete the overtake without getting close, then it's actually SAFER to do this compared to overtaking when you can't see a car coming, for example on a shorter straight. However, you will find you get flashed by the oncomming car for "using their lane" or whatever!
(without fail, the flasher is driving a car so slow that overtaking anything faster than a bicycle would be a bad idea, and hence they have not the slightest clue how little time/space a well driven (right gear, right road position etc) modern performance car can overtake. These are also often the sort of people who when being overtaken brake to "help" you past, generally resulting in one passing them with a differential speed of about 100mph......)
What i mean by this is that say on a long straight you can see a car coming, once you've judged there is plenty of time to pull out and complete the overtake without getting close, then it's actually SAFER to do this compared to overtaking when you can't see a car coming, for example on a shorter straight. However, you will find you get flashed by the oncomming car for "using their lane" or whatever!
(without fail, the flasher is driving a car so slow that overtaking anything faster than a bicycle would be a bad idea, and hence they have not the slightest clue how little time/space a well driven (right gear, right road position etc) modern performance car can overtake. These are also often the sort of people who when being overtaken brake to "help" you past, generally resulting in one passing them with a differential speed of about 100mph......)
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