How do you drive your auto/semi-auto?
Discussion
I got an automatic car (actually DSG) as I spend 99.98% of my life driving at 4mph through heavy traffic. It's great for that. I usually put it in sport mode so it holds lower gears and I can keep a steady speed without braking.
On the rare occasions where my speed goes into double digits - it feels utterly wrong to be in 5th gear at 30mph and 6th at 40mph. In a manual car I don't think I've ever used 4th below 40mph.
Sport mode is better - but it holds on to some gears ridiculously long, and if I ever want to accelerate it still insists on wasting time by dropping down a gear first, so I inevitably get annoyed and put it in manual/flappy-paddle mode.
But then I feel like... why have I bought an automatic car if I pretty much never use 'D' and drive everywhere in manual mode
Anyone else the same? Or do you just leave it in 'D' and enjoy the waftability?
On the rare occasions where my speed goes into double digits - it feels utterly wrong to be in 5th gear at 30mph and 6th at 40mph. In a manual car I don't think I've ever used 4th below 40mph.
Sport mode is better - but it holds on to some gears ridiculously long, and if I ever want to accelerate it still insists on wasting time by dropping down a gear first, so I inevitably get annoyed and put it in manual/flappy-paddle mode.
But then I feel like... why have I bought an automatic car if I pretty much never use 'D' and drive everywhere in manual mode
Anyone else the same? Or do you just leave it in 'D' and enjoy the waftability?
It is a Passat. It doesn't even let me reach 5k in manual mode with my foot to the floor, it panics and shifts up about 300rpm before the red line (TDI).
How can it learn when I like to shift gear? Does it learn while I'm in manual mode? If so, mine has learning difficulties.
I always feel like the DSG is an outstanding piece of mechanical engineering, controlled by software written by someone without a driving license.
When I put my foot down it's like
1) Oh he wants to go faster, hmm let's have a think *time passes*
2) Right well, lets try to go faster in the current gear *more time passes*
3) No not quite enough torque, PREPARE FOR SHIFTING DOWN *weeks go by*
4) DOWN SHIFT IMMINENT *wind erosion has eaten away the bonnet*
5) *seamless, 100% smooth gear shift, faster than a speeding bullet, so fast it may have shifted time back slightly*
I don't know why it has to think before shifting. It makes the process as slow as a traditional automatic.
Maybe it's just the way they've set up the Passat though... Comfort rather than performance.
How can it learn when I like to shift gear? Does it learn while I'm in manual mode? If so, mine has learning difficulties.
I always feel like the DSG is an outstanding piece of mechanical engineering, controlled by software written by someone without a driving license.
When I put my foot down it's like
1) Oh he wants to go faster, hmm let's have a think *time passes*
2) Right well, lets try to go faster in the current gear *more time passes*
3) No not quite enough torque, PREPARE FOR SHIFTING DOWN *weeks go by*
4) DOWN SHIFT IMMINENT *wind erosion has eaten away the bonnet*
5) *seamless, 100% smooth gear shift, faster than a speeding bullet, so fast it may have shifted time back slightly*
I don't know why it has to think before shifting. It makes the process as slow as a traditional automatic.
Maybe it's just the way they've set up the Passat though... Comfort rather than performance.
Edited by bigbob77 on Friday 27th May 16:11
I knew it'd be a TDI just reading the OP, but you confirmed it in your next post. A few pointers:
1) The DSG boxes don't learn, it's a common myth. They just have a lot of tables/maps for various road speed v throttle position v gradient (and probably more).
2) Some of the older boxes have this hesitancy you describe, usually the 7 speed dry clutch units. Is yours a 7 speed or a higher powered 6 speed wet clutch? It's a software quirk, solved in later cars. Perhaps check with a main stealer to ensure your box has the latest software updates.
3) You have a VW. I have a Skoda (Superb 2.0 TSI 220). As such VAG are annoyed we didn't buy an Audi for extra cash. They have to differentiate the brands somehow, and crap throttle response and pickup on all non-Audi brands is one of those ways (understating power output and 0-60 times for 'lesser' brands with the same engines is another). Luckily there is a 'hidden' setting which is configurable using VCDS - the software/device used to access and tweak the ECU on VAG cars. This setting controls throttle sensitivity and response, and has only two possible configurations: VW/Seat/Skoda, and Audi. VW/Seat/Skoda gives laggy throttle response and low sensitivity, with a dead spot for the first inch or so of the pedal. Switching it to 'Audi' magically and drastically increases the sensitivity and throttle response, giving a much crisper drive with no more lag. Honestly. Look on an owners' club to find someone near you with a VCDS unit and get them to tweak it for you - it takes barely a minute. The coding for a Superb is 'Controller 1 , Byte 0-1 (change to 'Audi'), but it might be different on the Passat. It basically has the effect of giving a sport mode type throttle response (but better), without the whole only change up at the red line thing. YMMV.
You should be able to control the shift points (i.e. at various points in the rev band) just by using the throttle. More throttle = later shift at higher revs. This can even work in sport mode, though it's still biased toward higher revs at cruise and higher shift points. It is possible to get it to change before the red line though.
The reason your TDI is refusing to hit the red line is (probably) because it's pointless. After peak-torque-and-a-bit, you rapidly hit diminishing returns on the power output, most pronounced on a diesel. It's pretty pointless red-lining a derv so I imagine the box is mapped accordingly. My advice, get the software updates done (dealer) if available, get the 'Audi tweak' and leave it in D. Then get to know your box properly and learn where and how it shifts. That way you can quickly learn to drive around it (or, more accurately, drive to its strengths). Reg Local did a semi-auto guide on here (it's also in his excellent book), do a search for it.
At the end of the day - and I say this with all respect - it's still a VAG diesel. They're decent enough, fairly refined on later iterations, and not bad on fuel; but they're still four pot diesels. It's only ever going to give so much refinement, oomph and driver interaction. If circumstances permit, perhaps test drive a TSI next time (presuming you stay with VAG), as they're much nicer to drive by miles. Hope this helps mate.
1) The DSG boxes don't learn, it's a common myth. They just have a lot of tables/maps for various road speed v throttle position v gradient (and probably more).
2) Some of the older boxes have this hesitancy you describe, usually the 7 speed dry clutch units. Is yours a 7 speed or a higher powered 6 speed wet clutch? It's a software quirk, solved in later cars. Perhaps check with a main stealer to ensure your box has the latest software updates.
3) You have a VW. I have a Skoda (Superb 2.0 TSI 220). As such VAG are annoyed we didn't buy an Audi for extra cash. They have to differentiate the brands somehow, and crap throttle response and pickup on all non-Audi brands is one of those ways (understating power output and 0-60 times for 'lesser' brands with the same engines is another). Luckily there is a 'hidden' setting which is configurable using VCDS - the software/device used to access and tweak the ECU on VAG cars. This setting controls throttle sensitivity and response, and has only two possible configurations: VW/Seat/Skoda, and Audi. VW/Seat/Skoda gives laggy throttle response and low sensitivity, with a dead spot for the first inch or so of the pedal. Switching it to 'Audi' magically and drastically increases the sensitivity and throttle response, giving a much crisper drive with no more lag. Honestly. Look on an owners' club to find someone near you with a VCDS unit and get them to tweak it for you - it takes barely a minute. The coding for a Superb is 'Controller 1 , Byte 0-1 (change to 'Audi'), but it might be different on the Passat. It basically has the effect of giving a sport mode type throttle response (but better), without the whole only change up at the red line thing. YMMV.
You should be able to control the shift points (i.e. at various points in the rev band) just by using the throttle. More throttle = later shift at higher revs. This can even work in sport mode, though it's still biased toward higher revs at cruise and higher shift points. It is possible to get it to change before the red line though.
The reason your TDI is refusing to hit the red line is (probably) because it's pointless. After peak-torque-and-a-bit, you rapidly hit diminishing returns on the power output, most pronounced on a diesel. It's pretty pointless red-lining a derv so I imagine the box is mapped accordingly. My advice, get the software updates done (dealer) if available, get the 'Audi tweak' and leave it in D. Then get to know your box properly and learn where and how it shifts. That way you can quickly learn to drive around it (or, more accurately, drive to its strengths). Reg Local did a semi-auto guide on here (it's also in his excellent book), do a search for it.
At the end of the day - and I say this with all respect - it's still a VAG diesel. They're decent enough, fairly refined on later iterations, and not bad on fuel; but they're still four pot diesels. It's only ever going to give so much refinement, oomph and driver interaction. If circumstances permit, perhaps test drive a TSI next time (presuming you stay with VAG), as they're much nicer to drive by miles. Hope this helps mate.
Thanks, that's really interesting 
It's a 2012 6 speed box. The hesitancy - maybe I was being a bit unfair, it's not REALLY slow, but it's comparable to a traditional auto. The actual gearchange is very quick but the "thinking" process does slow it down.
It's a 2012 6 speed box. The hesitancy - maybe I was being a bit unfair, it's not REALLY slow, but it's comparable to a traditional auto. The actual gearchange is very quick but the "thinking" process does slow it down.
rainmakerraw said:
3) You have a VW. I have a Skoda (Superb 2.0 TSI 220). As such VAG are annoyed we didn't buy an Audi for extra cash. They have to differentiate the brands somehow, and crap throttle response and pickup on all non-Audi brands is one of those ways (understating power output and 0-60 times for 'lesser' brands with the same engines is another). Luckily there is a 'hidden' setting which is configurable using VCDS - the software/device used to access and tweak the ECU on VAG cars. This setting controls throttle sensitivity and response, and has only two possible configurations: VW/Seat/Skoda, and Audi. VW/Seat/Skoda gives laggy throttle response and low sensitivity, with a dead spot for the first inch or so of the pedal. Switching it to 'Audi' magically and drastically increases the sensitivity and throttle response, giving a much crisper drive with no more lag. Honestly. Look on an owners' club to find someone near you with a VCDS unit and get them to tweak it for you - it takes barely a minute. The coding for a Superb is 'Controller 1 , Byte 0-1 (change to 'Audi'), but it might be different on the Passat. It basically has the effect of giving a sport mode type throttle response (but better), without the whole only change up at the red line thing. YMMV.
Really tempted to try that! The car is under approved-used warranty for another 1.5 years - if there's ever a gearbox failure this might be an easy thing for them to blame it on and refuse a repair, though.
The reason your TDI is refusing to hit the red line is (probably) because it's pointless.
I know I just don't like my car telling me what I can and can't do
At the end of the day - and I say this with all respect - it's still a VAG diesel.
You're suggesting my TDI Passat Estate isn't a sports car???? But it has flappy paddles it's basically a Maserati!
Actually I have to say the 2.0 TDI is really well suited to the DSG. I love it as a combination and it suits my needs (heavy traffic commuting, load-lugging and dog-mobile) really well. The limiting "fun" factor of my car is the car itself, rather than the engine. It's definitely set up for refinement rather than enjoyment or driver feedback.
Really tempted to try that! The car is under approved-used warranty for another 1.5 years - if there's ever a gearbox failure this might be an easy thing for them to blame it on and refuse a repair, though.
The reason your TDI is refusing to hit the red line is (probably) because it's pointless.
I know I just don't like my car telling me what I can and can't do
At the end of the day - and I say this with all respect - it's still a VAG diesel.
You're suggesting my TDI Passat Estate isn't a sports car???? But it has flappy paddles it's basically a Maserati!
Actually I have to say the 2.0 TDI is really well suited to the DSG. I love it as a combination and it suits my needs (heavy traffic commuting, load-lugging and dog-mobile) really well. The limiting "fun" factor of my car is the car itself, rather than the engine. It's definitely set up for refinement rather than enjoyment or driver feedback.
A few years ago I had an E36 M3 evo with the very early BMW SMG gearbox. it had an automatic mode - I think I used it once.
The problem with that box was that the gearchanges - particularly the up-changes - could be quite jerky. You could smooth them out perfectly by lifting off slightly during the gearchange, but when it was in automatic mode, there was no way of telling exactly when the gearchange was coming, so you couldn't time the lift from the throttle to match the gearchange and you and your passengers ended up doing a passable impression of a nodding dog.
Downchanges were better as the car auto-blippped. I couldn't understand why the BMW engineers could program a nice rev-match for down-changes but didn't do anything for up-changes.
Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is that I didn't use the auto mode at all because I didn't like it. Instead I manually changed gears (no paddles in the first SMGs - just pull the gearstick back to change up and forwards to change down).
I've read a few threads from people complaining about semi-automatic gearboxes not performing how they'd like them to. Thats because they can't read your mind!
For a bimble, a cruise or a sluggish commute, the benefits of running these cars in automatic mode are clear (and DSG boxes don't suffer the jerky gearchange issues of the SMG). If you're looking to make progress, however, or you want the car to do what you want it to do, just switch over to manual mode and change gear yourself.
No automatic will ever do exactly what you want it to do, so if you don't like what it's doing, take over!
The problem with that box was that the gearchanges - particularly the up-changes - could be quite jerky. You could smooth them out perfectly by lifting off slightly during the gearchange, but when it was in automatic mode, there was no way of telling exactly when the gearchange was coming, so you couldn't time the lift from the throttle to match the gearchange and you and your passengers ended up doing a passable impression of a nodding dog.
Downchanges were better as the car auto-blippped. I couldn't understand why the BMW engineers could program a nice rev-match for down-changes but didn't do anything for up-changes.
Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is that I didn't use the auto mode at all because I didn't like it. Instead I manually changed gears (no paddles in the first SMGs - just pull the gearstick back to change up and forwards to change down).
I've read a few threads from people complaining about semi-automatic gearboxes not performing how they'd like them to. Thats because they can't read your mind!
For a bimble, a cruise or a sluggish commute, the benefits of running these cars in automatic mode are clear (and DSG boxes don't suffer the jerky gearchange issues of the SMG). If you're looking to make progress, however, or you want the car to do what you want it to do, just switch over to manual mode and change gear yourself.
No automatic will ever do exactly what you want it to do, so if you don't like what it's doing, take over!
I keep it in regular auto mode about 90% of the time, don't use "sport" auto at all really, but do often use "manual" mode if at the front of a queue at a red light. The car always sets off in second gear unless you tell it otherwise and I find it's sharper and nicer to set off in first most of the time.
I think it depends upon the car. I was lucky enough to have a Challenge Stradale a few years back (looking at current prices I wish I had kept it!) and only ever changed gears manually with the paddles. Actually I'm embarrassed to say I don't know now whether it even had an automatic mode. I assume it must have done but not sure. Never tried it if it did. Compared to modern DSG boxes it was probably rubbish but I loved it. I now have a BMW 135i with 8 speed auto and flappy paddles. I almost never change gears manually with the paddles. Just doesn't seem to suit the car somehow or perhaps it reflects that I'm only using the car in town or for mundane journies.
Very much depends upon the car, or more to the point what sort of engine. Big torquey diesel engines suit automatics, and manual versions are much less pleasant to drive. One of my cars is a Land Rover Disco 4 and even though I only have the six speed auto rather than the later 8 speed, the auto box is perfect for the car. Most of the time standard auto works perfectly, if making progress on more winding roads then sport mode will hold a lower gear which helps stability when cornering. It will also change down whilst braking to give some engine braking, this is not as smooth as in normal mode where is gearbox is more of an advanced driver and holds the high gear until the braking has been accomplished - avoids BGOL!
The other car is Porsche Boxster S and in my view far more satisfying as a manual - i really dislike having my driving style dictated by how the gearbox is programmed.
The other car is Porsche Boxster S and in my view far more satisfying as a manual - i really dislike having my driving style dictated by how the gearbox is programmed.
I'm also driving a DSG car.
Around town. I mostly keep it in Eco so it'll coast and just generally be a slower car. When I get out onto the bigger roads so dual carriageways at 40 or anything else like motorways or our favourite A and B roads, I'll have it in Sports Manual and shift using the paddles on the steering wheel. For motorways when on cruiser Drive Auto is fine.
I can't handle the Sports Auto setting as it holds gears too long - pretty much all the way to red and I don't think doing that all the time is good for the car.
Around town. I mostly keep it in Eco so it'll coast and just generally be a slower car. When I get out onto the bigger roads so dual carriageways at 40 or anything else like motorways or our favourite A and B roads, I'll have it in Sports Manual and shift using the paddles on the steering wheel. For motorways when on cruiser Drive Auto is fine.
I can't handle the Sports Auto setting as it holds gears too long - pretty much all the way to red and I don't think doing that all the time is good for the car.
bigbob77 said:
You're suggesting my TDI Passat Estate isn't a sports car???? But it has flappy paddles it's basically a Maserati!
I was bemused by my missus's Tiguan having launch control!I find the DSG in her car is pretty good. A bit different to my older diesel auto Merc - but of course it's really an automated manual rather than a "proper" auto box.
The comments about the throttle response for different VAG marques are interesting - I don't find a delay but the dead spot of the first inch of accelerator travel always throws me when I jump into her car. It also can be a bit abrupt in reverse - nothing and then it suddenly goes. Stopped using auto hold and auto handbrake - seem pointless in an auto and I think they make starting from rest a bit weird as the car is momentarily trying to overcome the brake as it release.
First time in a DSG car I was all "I know what I'm doing better than the car" and was flicking up and down the box like a race driver. After 5 miles I put it into drive and left it there, and I do the same every time now.
As above, the trick is to learn how the box will react - it's a relatively simple interaction between throttle position, engine speed and road speed (not any harder than rev matching really), and if you do that you can work with the gearbox rather than against it, which makes everything much smoother.
As above, the trick is to learn how the box will react - it's a relatively simple interaction between throttle position, engine speed and road speed (not any harder than rev matching really), and if you do that you can work with the gearbox rather than against it, which makes everything much smoother.
My car has a DSG-style DCT gearbox. I leave it in 'D' most of the time. You soon get to learn its little nuances and how to drive it in order to get the best out of it and make the smoothest progress.
As said, the oft-touted notion that gearboxes learn how you drive them is largely a myth. They have preset parameters determining when they shift, how fast they shift, etc. You'll learn these as you get used to the box.
Occasionally I'll shove it in manual mode and have a bit of a play. The throttle blips when downshifting are quite cool as are the full-throttle upshifts.
As said, the oft-touted notion that gearboxes learn how you drive them is largely a myth. They have preset parameters determining when they shift, how fast they shift, etc. You'll learn these as you get used to the box
.Occasionally I'll shove it in manual mode and have a bit of a play. The throttle blips when downshifting are quite cool as are the full-throttle upshifts.
The dsg box was part of the reason I sold my V6 TT. The auto mode just felt daft, full on woft mode with anything above 30 mph it would be straight into 6th gear. Come a point you need to accelerate it would take an age on a light throttle or with a heavy throttle it goes nuts and drops 3 gears and slaps you bang into the red line then your off which just felt like over kill. Sport mode was fine for a traffic lights grand prix but I can't see what you need it for on anything but a race track and then it's a TT with all that body roll and a boat anchor up front. I always felt it needed a mode in the middle of the two.
Dave Hedgehog said:
if its a VAG DSG system it will learn how you drive and adjust the shift points accordingly (most of the time)
mine changes up at 5k now in full auto mode
Changes at 5k in ever gear no matter what the throttle of engine load? Doubt it.mine changes up at 5k now in full auto mode
I drive my DSG in manual 80-90% of the time
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