Discussion
Hi,
I've recently taken it upon myself to learn the heel/toe technique for no other reason than I wanted to and am also interested in possibly entering some hill climb events and track days.
I have the motion under control but am finding it hard to rev match, can anyone offer advice on how to catch the revs at the right point?
My sequence goes like this (for argument sake lets say im in 4th gear approaching bend and I want to change down to 3rd gear) gas, as bend approaches apply brakes, clutch in, blip throttle whilst selecting 3rd, let clutch out and back on the gas to exit the bend.
Is there a way to insure the revs are matched or is it a case of just practicing?
Thanks in advance.
Pete H
I've recently taken it upon myself to learn the heel/toe technique for no other reason than I wanted to and am also interested in possibly entering some hill climb events and track days.
I have the motion under control but am finding it hard to rev match, can anyone offer advice on how to catch the revs at the right point?
My sequence goes like this (for argument sake lets say im in 4th gear approaching bend and I want to change down to 3rd gear) gas, as bend approaches apply brakes, clutch in, blip throttle whilst selecting 3rd, let clutch out and back on the gas to exit the bend.
Is there a way to insure the revs are matched or is it a case of just practicing?
Thanks in advance.
Pete H
The thing to notice is whether the revs are too low or two high when you bring up the clutch?
By noticing this you can adjust either the size of the blip, or its timing. Too low would suggest too small a blip, or too early (so that the revs fall back down before you bring up the clutch). Too high would suggest too large a blip, or too late.
One other tip - make sure you make the gear-change (and hence throttle blip) whilst you are braking firmly - i.e. after the initial application. Many attempt the gear-change late in the braking phase, when you are beginning to taper off, and this makes the throttle blip harder to do accurately.
By noticing this you can adjust either the size of the blip, or its timing. Too low would suggest too small a blip, or too early (so that the revs fall back down before you bring up the clutch). Too high would suggest too large a blip, or too late.
One other tip - make sure you make the gear-change (and hence throttle blip) whilst you are braking firmly - i.e. after the initial application. Many attempt the gear-change late in the braking phase, when you are beginning to taper off, and this makes the throttle blip harder to do accurately.
Some further thoughts. Chose a particular speed for changing down, so you know what revs you will need in the lower gear. On track, the 4th to 3rd change is likely to be at something like 90 mph, to benefit from engine braking, but on the road you can do it much lower in the rev range. Consider using a 'sustained rev' action on the accelerator, just raising the revs to the level needed in the new gear rather than blipping to a higher level and having to let the clutch out at the exact moment to catch the revs at the right level as they drop.
And on practising - not necessarily for the OP but for anyone considering this - you mustn't compromise safety while practising. Have the ball of the foot firmly on the brake pedal, and practise initially NOT when you are hurtling towards a difficult bend at a critical speed!
And on practising - not necessarily for the OP but for anyone considering this - you mustn't compromise safety while practising. Have the ball of the foot firmly on the brake pedal, and practise initially NOT when you are hurtling towards a difficult bend at a critical speed!
I manage it in my diesel so no, you don't need to go changing flywheels etc. Infact a lightened flywheel may make it harder for you. Because the engine would rev up a lot quicker.
Just continue practising. I used to play a lot of racing sims when I was younger, iRacing, Live For Speed etc, and I had a Logitech G25. That's where I learnt and then when I started driving it was just something I already knew how to do.
If you are struggling watch some youtube videos for positioning and technique and just keep plugging away.
Just continue practising. I used to play a lot of racing sims when I was younger, iRacing, Live For Speed etc, and I had a Logitech G25. That's where I learnt and then when I started driving it was just something I already knew how to do.
If you are struggling watch some youtube videos for positioning and technique and just keep plugging away.
As others have said, this is just practise. Yes, a lightened flywheel and good throttle response help, but H&T is quite possible in a normal car, you just need to practise. If your car has a drive by wire throttle with a lag then you'll need to blip earlier, and many diesel turbos require a longer and bigger blip to get the revs up, but it's still possible.
Do persist, because H&T is a very useful technique if you need to take a lower gear, but want to stay on the brakes for whatever reason (signalling to traffic behind, potential to need to suddenly stop rather than accelerate away, taking an interim gear when braking from high speed to very low speed, etc).
Do persist, because H&T is a very useful technique if you need to take a lower gear, but want to stay on the brakes for whatever reason (signalling to traffic behind, potential to need to suddenly stop rather than accelerate away, taking an interim gear when braking from high speed to very low speed, etc).
I H&T on every downshift whenever I drive. It's just part of driving for me now. It makes your braking smoother, utilises engine braking a little more and makes everyday pootling more fun. Don't see why you wouldn't do it if you are used to it. Possible tiiiiiny fuel consumption increase? Can't see any other downsides.
Forget about the brakes for now. Try and rev match down shifts as you drive around so you get used to how much is required.
For example, drive along in 4th @ 3000rpm, change down normally and note the new rpm. e.g. it might be 3rd @ 5000rpm.
Now just try and blip the throttle on the downshifts to get the revs to rise 2000rpm.
Once you can do that regularly then introduce the brakes and heel & toe.
Of course, doing that in competition is another thing... with the extra speed and everything else going on
For example, drive along in 4th @ 3000rpm, change down normally and note the new rpm. e.g. it might be 3rd @ 5000rpm.
Now just try and blip the throttle on the downshifts to get the revs to rise 2000rpm.
Once you can do that regularly then introduce the brakes and heel & toe.
Of course, doing that in competition is another thing... with the extra speed and everything else going on
fatjon said:
Is it not easier to left foot brake and do clutchless changes? That's my preferred method, seems more natural to me than trying to twist my knee into a rather uncomfortable position to heel and toe. Not that I do it often on the road anyway.
Heel and toe shouldn't require a twist of the knee - that's really not good for you! Just a quick flick of the right foot onto the throttle should be fine. Having said that, cars vary and I won't buy a car that doesn't permit easy H&T like most BMWs, Porsches, Lotuses etc do.Clutchless changes are the kindest way to change gear in a straight cut dog ring gearbox. Regarding road car synchro boxes though, I'm not sure they'd be very good for the gearbox would they?!
xjay1337 said:
fatjon said:
Is it not easier to left foot brake and do clutchless changes? That's my preferred method, seems more natural to me than trying to twist my knee into a rather uncomfortable position to heel and toe. Not that I do it often on the road anyway.
Bet your synchros love you!!!fatjon said:
xjay1337 said:
fatjon said:
Is it not easier to left foot brake and do clutchless changes? That's my preferred method, seems more natural to me than trying to twist my knee into a rather uncomfortable position to heel and toe. Not that I do it often on the road anyway.
Bet your synchros love you!!!My 15 year old can do it confidently and without fail after a half hour of instruction on the field. There seems to be some confusion about "rev matching", like you hold the engine at a fixed RPM and go for the gear. You don't do that you catch the gear on the rise or fall of the revs with either a blip for a down change or a release for an up change. Once you have a feel for it every gear just drops in sweetly. I tend to use it for 5th,4th,3rd,2nd rarely use it for 1st, that can be quite hard to get right and when it goes wrong it puts quite a shock through the transmission.
Easier to learn the rev matching without braking. The sustain never works for me, so I blip instead and catch the revs on the way down, easier when you have a loud engine.
I do the knee twist thing a bit and it works for me. I have narrow feet and like to have ball of foot firmly over the brake, so it does tend to be my heel that blips the throttle. I'd say the only thing that makes it impossible is an overservoed brake pedal.
I do the knee twist thing a bit and it works for me. I have narrow feet and like to have ball of foot firmly over the brake, so it does tend to be my heel that blips the throttle. I'd say the only thing that makes it impossible is an overservoed brake pedal.
thehighwayman said:
My sequence goes like this (for argument sake lets say im in 4th gear approaching bend and I want to change down to 3rd gear) gas, as bend approaches apply brakes, clutch in, blip throttle whilst selecting 3rd, let clutch out and back on the gas to exit the bend.
Is there a way to insure the revs are matched or is it a case of just practicing?
Thanks in advance.
Pete H
It's a lot of practice, really. Start with the 5th/4th change as it's easiest to get right, and work down from there. It took me about 5 years of practice but I can now double declutch HnT down into first gear when rolling up to traffic lights, which is a surprisingly useful trick if you want to make a quick getaway. Is there a way to insure the revs are matched or is it a case of just practicing?
Thanks in advance.
Pete H
mybrainhurts said:
FFS, hard on the brakes and rev hard.
Or gentle braking and a gentle blip.
How hard can it be?
Like I said, it can be very difficult or impossible depending on the car.Or gentle braking and a gentle blip.
How hard can it be?
It's second nature to me now, I use it on the road and on the track.
However it can be very difficult in newer cars with the pedals miles apart, over-assisted brakes, mapped-in throttle delay and zero throttle response. And it you're unfortunate enough to own a car with this safety feature, you may find that the car is closing the throttle for you whenever you touch the brake pedal.
Entirely unnecessary "FFS" by the way.
Edited by HustleRussell on Saturday 30th January 09:10
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