Is changing down through the gears a bad habit
Discussion
Free flowing traffic, car ahead wants to turn and needs to stop. There's a big enough gap that if you work your way down through the gears and feather the clutch you can slow down to the appropriate gear to pull away again without braking. Is this a bad habit that I've got into. Should I brake and not change down through the gears? I only change down if I can use the gear / get the clutch fully up. In situations with a car following closely or on fast roads (or where a quicker stop is needed) I would brake and change down.
Gears for go, brakes for slow.
I think the official line is to slow using the brakes in the gear you approached in and depress the clutch before the engine tries to stall. Engage an appropriate gear to move off when the coast is clear.
I go down through the gears though because I'm a rebel who plays by my own rules.
I think the official line is to slow using the brakes in the gear you approached in and depress the clutch before the engine tries to stall. Engage an appropriate gear to move off when the coast is clear.
I go down through the gears though because I'm a rebel who plays by my own rules.
Clutch plate wear? depends how good your rev matching is. Clutch cable / slave cylinder / release bearing / pedal mechanism / clutch switch wear? inevitable with more gear changes I suppose. Gear synchro / selector mechanism wear? again, inevitable with more changes I suppose.
Whether the life span of any of these components is going to be reduced appreciably by the additional gear changes, how would you ever know?
Personally I do it anyway, if that means I need a clutch kit after 190k rather than 200k so be it.
Whether the life span of any of these components is going to be reduced appreciably by the additional gear changes, how would you ever know?
Personally I do it anyway, if that means I need a clutch kit after 190k rather than 200k so be it.
Learn to heel n' toe.
It's nice to be in the correct gear when the car moves out the way and I accelerate away in the correct gear while the car behind fumbles with the clutch.
As for wear, I changed out a clutch in a car I've driven like this for ten years. The clutch was changed because the pressure plate strap had failed and was flailing inside the bell housing. The clutch friction disk was barely half worn, at 150,000 miles.
It's nice to be in the correct gear when the car moves out the way and I accelerate away in the correct gear while the car behind fumbles with the clutch.
As for wear, I changed out a clutch in a car I've driven like this for ten years. The clutch was changed because the pressure plate strap had failed and was flailing inside the bell housing. The clutch friction disk was barely half worn, at 150,000 miles.
NDNDNDND said:
Learn to heel n' toe.
It's nice to be in the correct gear when the car moves out the way and I accelerate away in the correct gear while the car behind fumbles with the clutch.
As for wear, I changed out a clutch in a car I've driven like this for ten years. The clutch was changed because the pressure plate strap had failed and was flailing inside the bell housing. The clutch friction disk was barely half worn, at 150,000 miles.
Personally wouldn't use or encourage heel & toe in this scenario (where you can pretty much coast down to the appropriate speed with little/no braking). H&T here just puts unnecessary fuel and revs into the unloaded engine for no benefit and no matter how good you are at H&T (which is supremely difficult or impossible in modern over-assisted braking systems) you aren't going to be able to be as smooth as coasting down and shifting once into the correct gear to move off. I'd probably make one rev-matched downshift. It's nice to be in the correct gear when the car moves out the way and I accelerate away in the correct gear while the car behind fumbles with the clutch.
As for wear, I changed out a clutch in a car I've driven like this for ten years. The clutch was changed because the pressure plate strap had failed and was flailing inside the bell housing. The clutch friction disk was barely half worn, at 150,000 miles.
I go down the gearbox with H&T only when I'm using a decent amount of brakes i.e. when going for it a bit.
HustleRussell said:
Clutch plate wear? depends how good your rev matching is. Clutch cable / slave cylinder / release bearing / pedal mechanism / clutch switch wear? inevitable with more gear changes I suppose. Gear synchro / selector mechanism wear? again, inevitable with more changes I suppose.
Whether the life span of any of these components is going to be reduced appreciably by the additional gear changes, how would you ever know?
Personally I do it anyway, if that means I need a clutch kit after 190k rather than 200k so be it.
I was taught to brake and not change down through the gears, at some point soon after passing I started to change down instinctively and the habit stuck. I've given it a go last night and this morning on my commute and dipping the clutch around 800 rpm means the majority of engine braking still applies. I'm struggling to override muscle memory but not changing down does make approaching easier, I'm still selecting the next onward gear to accelerate out of the gap. I'll ask the IAM experts next year when I start going along to meetings!Whether the life span of any of these components is going to be reduced appreciably by the additional gear changes, how would you ever know?
Personally I do it anyway, if that means I need a clutch kit after 190k rather than 200k so be it.
NDNDNDND said:
Learn to heel n' toe.
It's nice to be in the correct gear when the car moves out the way and I accelerate away in the correct gear while the car behind fumbles with the clutch.
As for wear, I changed out a clutch in a car I've driven like this for ten years. The clutch was changed because the pressure plate strap had failed and was flailing inside the bell housing. The clutch friction disk was barely half worn, at 150,000 miles.
I've read the theory on heel & toe but haven't had a situation where I've thought I would need it. Saying that, I don't really know what I'm looking for. I suspect a trip round a track as a passenger would be enlightening!It's nice to be in the correct gear when the car moves out the way and I accelerate away in the correct gear while the car behind fumbles with the clutch.
As for wear, I changed out a clutch in a car I've driven like this for ten years. The clutch was changed because the pressure plate strap had failed and was flailing inside the bell housing. The clutch friction disk was barely half worn, at 150,000 miles.
SoupAnxiety said:
I was taught to brake and not change down through the gears, at some point soon after passing I started to change down instinctively and the habit stuck.
Same. Since I'm not really into the IAM thang I'm not trying to stop myself doing it, often my sense of mechanical sympathy stops me from making blatently unnecessary shifts but I still like to go down the gearbox at times.I believe heel & toe basically has no place on the public road, however as I happen to drive older cars in which H & T is possible and having learned how to do it I do use it, albeit for 'fun' rather than any supposed improvement in progress. This habit immediately goes out of the window the first time I try to do it in a modern car, with laggy drive-by-wire throttle, overly sensitive brakes which override the throttle on application, pedals so far apart you could fit another pedal in between them, and sound and vibration insulation so effective that you can't feel how many revs you're at anyway.
HustleRussell said:
Same. Since I'm not really into the IAM thang I'm not trying to stop myself doing it, often my sense of mechanical sympathy stops me from making blatently unnecessary shifts but I still like to go down the gearbox at times.
I believe heel & toe basically has no place on the public road, however as I happen to drive older cars in which H & T is possible and having learned how to do it I do use it, albeit for 'fun' rather than any supposed improvement in progress. This habit immediately goes out of the window the first time I try to do it in a modern car, with laggy drive-by-wire throttle, overly sensitive brakes which override the throttle on application, pedals so far apart you could fit another pedal in between them, and sound and vibration insulation so effective that you can't feel how many revs you're at anyway.
It's the mechanical sympathy element which made me ask the question, I don't mind working my car hard (especially with cheap petrol!) but want to avoid doing clown like things that would make a mechanic wince (or rub hands together with glee depending on perspective).I believe heel & toe basically has no place on the public road, however as I happen to drive older cars in which H & T is possible and having learned how to do it I do use it, albeit for 'fun' rather than any supposed improvement in progress. This habit immediately goes out of the window the first time I try to do it in a modern car, with laggy drive-by-wire throttle, overly sensitive brakes which override the throttle on application, pedals so far apart you could fit another pedal in between them, and sound and vibration insulation so effective that you can't feel how many revs you're at anyway.
I drive reasonably sedately anyway, a B road blast is for the twisties rather than flat out speed for me. I used to drive terribly in terms of risk / speed but getting older (and having kids) I am unable to override the, "are you sure" instinct!
I passed my test in the 80's and was taught to change down through the gears. I suspect it was more to do with crap brakes and an abundance of engine braking more than anything else.
A lot of modern cars seem to have practically zero engine braking and brakes that'll put you through the windscreen so the habit doesn't seem relevant anymore.
A lot of modern cars seem to have practically zero engine braking and brakes that'll put you through the windscreen so the habit doesn't seem relevant anymore.
A couple of things to bear in mind if you're using gears to slow instead of brakes:
1. (As someone has already mentioned) you won't be showing brake lights to the vehicles behind, who may not be looking in the same place as you and may not appreciate that you're slowing down.
2. You'll only be slowing the driven wheels, so unless you're in a car with permanent four-wheel drive, you'll only have two wheels and tyres doing the slowing for you.
In addition, unless you're covering the brake pedal with your foot whilst slowing, there will be a small additional delay if the situation changes and you find yourself needing some brakes.
Best advice when slowing for a hazard is to brake, rather than use the gears. If you want to change down whilst you're braking, fine. You won't pass an advanced driving test with this technique, but if it works for you, then carry on.
1. (As someone has already mentioned) you won't be showing brake lights to the vehicles behind, who may not be looking in the same place as you and may not appreciate that you're slowing down.
2. You'll only be slowing the driven wheels, so unless you're in a car with permanent four-wheel drive, you'll only have two wheels and tyres doing the slowing for you.
In addition, unless you're covering the brake pedal with your foot whilst slowing, there will be a small additional delay if the situation changes and you find yourself needing some brakes.
Best advice when slowing for a hazard is to brake, rather than use the gears. If you want to change down whilst you're braking, fine. You won't pass an advanced driving test with this technique, but if it works for you, then carry on.
Reg Local said:
A couple of things to bear in mind if you're using gears to slow instead of brakes:
1. (As someone has already mentioned) you won't be showing brake lights to the vehicles behind, who may not be looking in the same place as you and may not appreciate that you're slowing down.
2. You'll only be slowing the driven wheels, so unless you're in a car with permanent four-wheel drive, you'll only have two wheels and tyres doing the slowing for you.
In addition, unless you're covering the brake pedal with your foot whilst slowing, there will be a small additional delay if the situation changes and you find yourself needing some brakes.
Best advice when slowing for a hazard is to brake, rather than use the gears. If you want to change down whilst you're braking, fine. You won't pass an advanced driving test with this technique, but if it works for you, then carry on.
Point #2 had never occurred to me and it is the nail in the coffin for my current technique. I'll persevere with unlearning the change down method and stick to using the brakes. Thanks, especially as I want to do my advanced test next year.1. (As someone has already mentioned) you won't be showing brake lights to the vehicles behind, who may not be looking in the same place as you and may not appreciate that you're slowing down.
2. You'll only be slowing the driven wheels, so unless you're in a car with permanent four-wheel drive, you'll only have two wheels and tyres doing the slowing for you.
In addition, unless you're covering the brake pedal with your foot whilst slowing, there will be a small additional delay if the situation changes and you find yourself needing some brakes.
Best advice when slowing for a hazard is to brake, rather than use the gears. If you want to change down whilst you're braking, fine. You won't pass an advanced driving test with this technique, but if it works for you, then carry on.
Are tour responsible for the art of gear change post or is my memory playing tricks?
Reg Local said:
A couple of things to bear in mind if you're using gears to slow instead of brakes:
1. (As someone has already mentioned) you won't be showing brake lights to the vehicles behind, who may not be looking in the same place as you and may not appreciate that you're slowing down.
2. You'll only be slowing the driven wheels, so unless you're in a car with permanent four-wheel drive, you'll only have two wheels and tyres doing the slowing for you.
In addition, unless you're covering the brake pedal with your foot whilst slowing, there will be a small additional delay if the situation changes and you find yourself needing some brakes.
Best advice when slowing for a hazard is to brake, rather than use the gears. If you want to change down whilst you're braking, fine. You won't pass an advanced driving test with this technique, but if it works for you, then carry on.
Does it matter how many wheels are doing the slowing in the describe scenario? The "braking" effect will be so minimal that you are unlikely to unbalance the car? 1. (As someone has already mentioned) you won't be showing brake lights to the vehicles behind, who may not be looking in the same place as you and may not appreciate that you're slowing down.
2. You'll only be slowing the driven wheels, so unless you're in a car with permanent four-wheel drive, you'll only have two wheels and tyres doing the slowing for you.
In addition, unless you're covering the brake pedal with your foot whilst slowing, there will be a small additional delay if the situation changes and you find yourself needing some brakes.
Best advice when slowing for a hazard is to brake, rather than use the gears. If you want to change down whilst you're braking, fine. You won't pass an advanced driving test with this technique, but if it works for you, then carry on.
SoupAnxiety said:
I've read the theory on heel & toe but haven't had a situation where I've thought I would need it. Saying that, I don't really know what I'm looking for. I suspect a trip round a track as a passenger would be enlightening!
Useful for roundabouts when you have enough vision to drive fast(ish). E.g approaching roundabout in 3rd, brake, HnT down to second, fling it in, dab of oppo etc etc 
SoupAnxiety said:
Are tour responsible for the art of gear change post or is my memory playing tricks?
This one?http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=361...
Yes, that's one of mine - a recent change in username might have thrown you. If you click through my username to my profile you might find some additional stuff which may interest you if you're looking at taking extra training.
Matthen said:
Does it matter how many wheels are doing the slowing in the describe scenario? The "braking" effect will be so minimal that you are unlikely to unbalance the car?
For a gradual reduction in speed on a good, dry surface? Probably not, no.But the OP stated that they were slowing with the gears habitually, and it's the habit, rather than the specific scenario which can be the problem. 99 times out of 100, slowing with the gears will work just fine - as would slowing with the handbrake, which would give a similar braking effect to slowing with the gears in a RWD car.
But then comes that 100th occasion, where the road is a bit slippery and there's a bit of a corner and the driver is a bit clumsy with their rev-matching, and...
You can write the next part yourself.
Just because something doesn't usually result in an accident doesn't mean it's good practice. Driving too close, for example, doesn't usually result in an accident, but it's not good practice.
Reg Local said:
SoupAnxiety said:
Are tour responsible for the art of gear change post or is my memory playing tricks?
This one?http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=361...
Yes, that's one of mine - a recent change in username might have thrown you. If you click through my username to my profile you might find some additional stuff which may interest you if you're looking at taking extra training.
Matthen said:
Does it matter how many wheels are doing the slowing in the describe scenario? The "braking" effect will be so minimal that you are unlikely to unbalance the car?
For a gradual reduction in speed on a good, dry surface? Probably not, no.But the OP stated that they were slowing with the gears habitually, and it's the habit, rather than the specific scenario which can be the problem. 99 times out of 100, slowing with the gears will work just fine - as would slowing with the handbrake, which would give a similar braking effect to slowing with the gears in a RWD car.
But then comes that 100th occasion, where the road is a bit slippery and there's a bit of a corner and the driver is a bit clumsy with their rev-matching, and...
You can write the next part yourself.
Just because something doesn't usually result in an accident doesn't mean it's good practice. Driving too close, for example, doesn't usually result in an accident, but it's not good practice.
Advice noted on slowing with the gears too.
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