Advanced driving tuition recommendations
Discussion
Mrs pablo passed her driving test a while ago but has only driven infrequently since. Whilst her driving isnt bad, she would like some advanced tuition, probably on a track, to better learn car control. I'm not sure AIM or passpluss is quite the right thing. Ideally it would be 1-2-1 tuition from a professional in a reasonably quick but normal and non-intimidating car who can explain all about the car dynamics, whats happening when she corners etc etc. Whilst I do help when she is driving, its hard to give advice when you cant explain things very well and especially when its your partner!!
Does anyone have any recommendations, South West would be ideal but happy to travel, cost not really an issue but around £250-400 for the day would be good....
Does anyone have any recommendations, South West would be ideal but happy to travel, cost not really an issue but around £250-400 for the day would be good....
I'm not saying there's a right answer, but a common mistake is to immediately pursue something exotic like limit handling or skid pans or stuff on track before nailing down safe, systematic road driving.
I can read into your OP that she might lack a bit mechanical sympathy, which we usually think of as mashing the gears but can be much more, like regularly asking a lot of the steering system. Is that it?
IAM would come at it from the inputs, talking a little and in shallow depth about why it manifests as bad feel. It might, but is unlikely to, talk about more detailed physics and car dynamics. To a large extent, this is fine. Driving is often a case of garbage in, garbage out, so concentrating on inputs isn't unreasonable, and the detailed stuff is for the geeks and those looking to further refine an already high standard.
It would also tackle confidence issues, and a bunch of technique-related items that you wouldn't recognise as important until after you'd adopted them. For improving a broad set of driving skills, the regular, multi-session nature of it is to my mind a better delivery format than a single shot, expensive day, although both have their pros and cons.
The test is neither here nor there - you don't have to do it, but it's a good motivator for something that can be hard to persist with.
After that, I would then consider a day of professional tuition to tackle anything you want to go into detail on, or to do some more sandbox exploration like emergency braking, lane changes and so on. However I would only want to add that skill set once they were competent at everything else, since it has potential to be (inadvertently) misused.
I can read into your OP that she might lack a bit mechanical sympathy, which we usually think of as mashing the gears but can be much more, like regularly asking a lot of the steering system. Is that it?
IAM would come at it from the inputs, talking a little and in shallow depth about why it manifests as bad feel. It might, but is unlikely to, talk about more detailed physics and car dynamics. To a large extent, this is fine. Driving is often a case of garbage in, garbage out, so concentrating on inputs isn't unreasonable, and the detailed stuff is for the geeks and those looking to further refine an already high standard.
It would also tackle confidence issues, and a bunch of technique-related items that you wouldn't recognise as important until after you'd adopted them. For improving a broad set of driving skills, the regular, multi-session nature of it is to my mind a better delivery format than a single shot, expensive day, although both have their pros and cons.
The test is neither here nor there - you don't have to do it, but it's a good motivator for something that can be hard to persist with.
After that, I would then consider a day of professional tuition to tackle anything you want to go into detail on, or to do some more sandbox exploration like emergency braking, lane changes and so on. However I would only want to add that skill set once they were competent at everything else, since it has potential to be (inadvertently) misused.
I think trashbat's first post deserve some more consideration - my experience with drivers that lack confidence suggests that skidding round an airfield probably isn't what they need.
I would expect that the right help is available for almost every issue, provided you start by asking the right question.
I would expect that the right help is available for almost every issue, provided you start by asking the right question.
Thanks for all your help.
The issue is two fold really, fundamentally most of the issues are nothing that more daily driving experience wont improve which is easy. The IAM Driving Support modules/Skills for life do look like they will increase the rate of learning however only two of the six modules are both theory and practical based.
The other issue I feel would help is some understanding of car dynamics which I, maybe erroneously thougt, would be best learnt at a track with a professional but we have put those ideas on hold for now. She was taught, like many others, to pass the test not how to drive safely and this really frustrates me.
It was an idea that a track and a professional would be the only safe environment suitable to learn about the car dynamics theory and practice by someone who can better explain whats happening to the car as she made adjustments to the steering/throttle inputs that isnt me!
As an example, her car is fwd, I have tried to explain that because the front wheels are the driven wheels and also steering the car, inputs have to be moderated etc (ok, not in those exact words!) but I cant explain it very well and honeslty, how many of us like being taught anything by our partners!...
There are a few ex/professional racing drivers who offer such a service but it looks like they are for novice/experienced racing drivers however, there is nothing to say that a they cant do something for her, I just havent spoken to any yet. She doesnt particualrly want to drive fast but does want to learn more about driving and the mechanics of the car.
I'll be honest, I was somewhat ignorant of what the IAM did and still am to some extent. There looks like there is a degree of reinfrocing what the driving test covers but in more detail, there doesnt appear to be much on hte websitre to suggest that they will be able to help with the skills/knowledge gap mentioned above though.
We are Bristol based.
The issue is two fold really, fundamentally most of the issues are nothing that more daily driving experience wont improve which is easy. The IAM Driving Support modules/Skills for life do look like they will increase the rate of learning however only two of the six modules are both theory and practical based.
The other issue I feel would help is some understanding of car dynamics which I, maybe erroneously thougt, would be best learnt at a track with a professional but we have put those ideas on hold for now. She was taught, like many others, to pass the test not how to drive safely and this really frustrates me.
It was an idea that a track and a professional would be the only safe environment suitable to learn about the car dynamics theory and practice by someone who can better explain whats happening to the car as she made adjustments to the steering/throttle inputs that isnt me!
As an example, her car is fwd, I have tried to explain that because the front wheels are the driven wheels and also steering the car, inputs have to be moderated etc (ok, not in those exact words!) but I cant explain it very well and honeslty, how many of us like being taught anything by our partners!...
There are a few ex/professional racing drivers who offer such a service but it looks like they are for novice/experienced racing drivers however, there is nothing to say that a they cant do something for her, I just havent spoken to any yet. She doesnt particualrly want to drive fast but does want to learn more about driving and the mechanics of the car.
I'll be honest, I was somewhat ignorant of what the IAM did and still am to some extent. There looks like there is a degree of reinfrocing what the driving test covers but in more detail, there doesnt appear to be much on hte websitre to suggest that they will be able to help with the skills/knowledge gap mentioned above though.
We are Bristol based.
Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 6th January 11:17
That's a good place to be - both martine and I are in North Bristol too. We're both involved in the IAM, but perhaps have wider experience than most volunteer observers.
Drop me a PM if you'd like to go for a drive and chat - I'd be happy to explain the options and suggest some ways forward.
Drop me a PM if you'd like to go for a drive and chat - I'd be happy to explain the options and suggest some ways forward.
pablo said:
As an example, her car is fwd, I have tried to explain that because the front wheels are the driven wheels and also steering the car, inputs have to be moderated etc (ok, not in those exact words!) but I cant explain it very well and honeslty, how many of us like being taught anything by our partners!...
Are you seriously suggesting you need to drive a FWD car differently from RWD?People crash on the road because of poor observation not because of not understanding supposed differences in driving dynamics between FWD and RWD. As a general rule racing drivers without road instructional experience just teach track techniques which are of no benefit on the road.
Dr Jekyll said:
Are you seriously suggesting you need to drive a FWD car differently from RWD?
People crash on the road because of poor observation not because of not understanding supposed differences in driving dynamics between FWD and RWD. As a general rule racing drivers without road instructional experience just teach track techniques which are of no benefit on the road.
From a use of road craft viewpoint you are correct but I don't think you're right in eliminating the difference in driving dynamics between FWD and RWD from the equation. I still frequent the S2000 forums and the number of accidents which, typically, young men in their 20s, who have only driven FWD cars before they acquire an S2000 as their first RWD car, have with an S2000 have through loss of control is legion.People crash on the road because of poor observation not because of not understanding supposed differences in driving dynamics between FWD and RWD. As a general rule racing drivers without road instructional experience just teach track techniques which are of no benefit on the road.
I think the OP's objective is perfectly valid; there's nothing wrong with developing an understanding of car dynamics, whether or not you are "just" a regular everyday driver. Think of the number of low speed collisions that occur every time it snows or gets a little greasy with fallen leaves. In my view part of any competent driver's repertoire should include some knowledge and experience of what it's like to be in charge of a car beyond the limit of grip.
The traditional route for this kind of experience is a skid pan and our local IAM group organises regular visits. There you can learn about the differences between fwd and rwd at safe, slow speeds with experienced instructors plus, it's a load of fun!
Beyond that, there are courses such as Car Limits which is airfield based and where the speeds are much higher. I'm booked to try a Car Limits day later this month (in just such a Honda S2000 as is mentioned above, albeit I no longer qualify as a 20 something!). I suspect that it will require a higher level of commitment than a skid pan and will be much more expensive on tyres but I'm looking forward to it.
The traditional route for this kind of experience is a skid pan and our local IAM group organises regular visits. There you can learn about the differences between fwd and rwd at safe, slow speeds with experienced instructors plus, it's a load of fun!
Beyond that, there are courses such as Car Limits which is airfield based and where the speeds are much higher. I'm booked to try a Car Limits day later this month (in just such a Honda S2000 as is mentioned above, albeit I no longer qualify as a 20 something!). I suspect that it will require a higher level of commitment than a skid pan and will be much more expensive on tyres but I'm looking forward to it.
Skid pans kind of illustrate my point; they've fallen out of favour from a safety perspective because they appear to increase the accident rate amongst pupils, rather than decrease it. This might be because people go out explicitly looking to use their new hat trick or maybe just begin pushing the limits a bit more thinking that their new skill set will allow it.
I think there's a time and place for them, but it comes a long way down the development path. That's the main point I was making before.
And, from a practical perspective, it's basically useless. In the average modern car, driving sensibly, in normal UK conditions - anything short of snow and ice - you're very, very unlikely to invoke a serious slide. It's an edge case, and being able to deal with it might be helpful, but getting your driving to a point where you don't end up in that situation is probably a lot more valuable.
I think there's a time and place for them, but it comes a long way down the development path. That's the main point I was making before.
And, from a practical perspective, it's basically useless. In the average modern car, driving sensibly, in normal UK conditions - anything short of snow and ice - you're very, very unlikely to invoke a serious slide. It's an edge case, and being able to deal with it might be helpful, but getting your driving to a point where you don't end up in that situation is probably a lot more valuable.
Edited by trashbat on Tuesday 6th January 20:27
I hadn't heard that statistic before about skid pan users having more accidents. That's kind of depressing! I absolutely agree that modern tyres and car stability systems mean that in normal conditions skid control plays no part in day to day driving. Even in an emergency avoidance the technique in a modern car is basically to stand as hard as possible on the brake and just steer.
And yet, the laws of physics still apply and I still believe that it's worth knowing and experiencing something about the effect of weight transfer on vehicle stability and what happens to a vehicle when you accelerate or brake while cornering and how these things differ between fwd and rwd. It's all about maximising the margin of grip for a given rate of progress and to my thinking it's a part - perhaps not the most important part but a part nonetheless - of competent driving.
And yet, the laws of physics still apply and I still believe that it's worth knowing and experiencing something about the effect of weight transfer on vehicle stability and what happens to a vehicle when you accelerate or brake while cornering and how these things differ between fwd and rwd. It's all about maximising the margin of grip for a given rate of progress and to my thinking it's a part - perhaps not the most important part but a part nonetheless - of competent driving.
I'd agree - some understanding of the physics of the thing can make you much smoother, and also keep you further from the limits of grip for a given speed.
It's entirely possible to feel and learn about these effects at everyday road speeds, and I reckon most people would be able to feel them if they'd had an explanation of what to look for. The vast majority of road users seem to get along OK in their state of blissful ignorance though, so it's not generally a major concern.
Reading between the lines I wonder if the OP's partner is careless with the grip available (perhaps through a lack of smoothness or mechanical sympathy), and whether this is the root of the concern.
If it is, it's got to be better to learn to manage weight and grip a bit in an everyday context, rather than picking up just enough about limit handling to be dangerous.
It's entirely possible to feel and learn about these effects at everyday road speeds, and I reckon most people would be able to feel them if they'd had an explanation of what to look for. The vast majority of road users seem to get along OK in their state of blissful ignorance though, so it's not generally a major concern.
Reading between the lines I wonder if the OP's partner is careless with the grip available (perhaps through a lack of smoothness or mechanical sympathy), and whether this is the root of the concern.
If it is, it's got to be better to learn to manage weight and grip a bit in an everyday context, rather than picking up just enough about limit handling to be dangerous.
As you are in Bristol the skid pan at Castle Coombe is only half an hour up the road, it is cheap and a great half day out, it teaches a lot more than just skid control and is good fun, do it with the wife. IAM answers most of your needs but is a bit dry, interesting that there website doesn't put across what they do and how they do it.
pablo - how about doing a combined road and track day with RideDrive? This particular RideDrive day includes learning car control at an airfield, as well as roadcraft.
You could do this before or after an IAM course. The two would fit well together, because RideDrive use the same police system as the IAM. I'd ideally encourage taking both courses
You could do this before or after an IAM course. The two would fit well together, because RideDrive use the same police system as the IAM. I'd ideally encourage taking both courses
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