Lane markings coming off this roundabout
Discussion
I'm travelling North on the B1318 Great North Road. At this time, the bus lane is in operation.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Gosforth,+Newc...
What I think is *supposed* to happen on this roundabout is that traffic in Lane 1 has priority, and doesn't have to give-way to anyone (or signal?) as it either moves into Lane 2 or enters the bus lane (if permitted). Traffic that comes off the roundabout in Lane 2 must merge into Lane 1 before the hatchings, then swing back into Lane 2.
What really happens is that traffic in Lane 2 just pretends the hatchings aren't there and stays in Lane 2. Traffic in Lane 1 then dutifully follows the throwing arrows and is put in conflict with the Lane 2 trafffic. The paint is clearly telling us that it wants Lane 2 traffic to move left, but since it doesn't have a solid border it appears to be legal to enter it, right?
I tend to follow the Lane 1 path, but I'm always on the lookout for people coming through the hatchings.
Most of the time I drive it the bus lane isn't in operation, so I drive in my own private lane.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Gosforth,+Newc...
What I think is *supposed* to happen on this roundabout is that traffic in Lane 1 has priority, and doesn't have to give-way to anyone (or signal?) as it either moves into Lane 2 or enters the bus lane (if permitted). Traffic that comes off the roundabout in Lane 2 must merge into Lane 1 before the hatchings, then swing back into Lane 2.
What really happens is that traffic in Lane 2 just pretends the hatchings aren't there and stays in Lane 2. Traffic in Lane 1 then dutifully follows the throwing arrows and is put in conflict with the Lane 2 trafffic. The paint is clearly telling us that it wants Lane 2 traffic to move left, but since it doesn't have a solid border it appears to be legal to enter it, right?
I tend to follow the Lane 1 path, but I'm always on the lookout for people coming through the hatchings.
Most of the time I drive it the bus lane isn't in operation, so I drive in my own private lane.
There are three lanes on the northbound approach (lanes 1 and 2 can go straight on according to the arrows on the road). There are no lane markings on the roundabout though. What do people do - do they enter the roundabout three abreast as if it were marked with three lanes? It's not obvious whether there's room on the roundabout for that. Anyway, two (of the three) approach lanes go straight ahead and there are two lanes on the exit straight ahead, so I imagine the idea would be you approach in one of those two and exit in the corresponding lane - simple 
.
As to what happens after the roundabout, that does look odd. I wonder what the reason is for trying to feed two lanes into 1 over on the left hand side then immediately moving back over to the right. Why not merge the other way in the first place? The hatch markings have a broken edge so you are allowed to enter them, and given the layout I can very much see why people would. At the end of the day though, it's just two lanes merging into one (at least it is during the hours of operation of the bus lane) so pick your merge point, play nice, signal if you need to, merge and get on with your day.
The roundabout looks to me like a very good candidate for making sure you are alongside a gap, not alongside another vehicle (always a good idea on roundabouts) and, if possible, a bit of tactical straightlining to discourage others from getting alongside you.
.As to what happens after the roundabout, that does look odd. I wonder what the reason is for trying to feed two lanes into 1 over on the left hand side then immediately moving back over to the right. Why not merge the other way in the first place? The hatch markings have a broken edge so you are allowed to enter them, and given the layout I can very much see why people would. At the end of the day though, it's just two lanes merging into one (at least it is during the hours of operation of the bus lane) so pick your merge point, play nice, signal if you need to, merge and get on with your day.
The roundabout looks to me like a very good candidate for making sure you are alongside a gap, not alongside another vehicle (always a good idea on roundabouts) and, if possible, a bit of tactical straightlining to discourage others from getting alongside you.
Yes, sorry. My question was more about the bus-lane and hatching shenanigans, rather than the immediate exit of the roundabout itself.
Three abreast across the roundabout. L1 goes straight on, L3 turns right, L2 can do either. It's pretty tight - particularly if L1 or L3 drivers are not on the ball.
My question is more about right of way. (I realise that right of way is nice in theory but doesn't always work in practice!) Am I right in thinking that staying in L1, following it as it swings around the hatchings and becomes L2, I shouldn't have to give way to anyone?
Conversely, if I'm in L2 and there's no conflict with traffic in L1, I can plough through the hatchings without having to go through the chicane?
In reality, I tend to do as you suggest and make sure there's a gap alongside me.
Three abreast across the roundabout. L1 goes straight on, L3 turns right, L2 can do either. It's pretty tight - particularly if L1 or L3 drivers are not on the ball.
My question is more about right of way. (I realise that right of way is nice in theory but doesn't always work in practice!) Am I right in thinking that staying in L1, following it as it swings around the hatchings and becomes L2, I shouldn't have to give way to anyone?
Conversely, if I'm in L2 and there's no conflict with traffic in L1, I can plough through the hatchings without having to go through the chicane?
In reality, I tend to do as you suggest and make sure there's a gap alongside me.
qualitystreet said:
My question is more about right of way. (I realise that right of way is nice in theory but doesn't always work in practice!) Am I right in thinking that staying in L1, following it as it swings around the hatchings and becomes L2, I shouldn't have to give way to anyone?
I don't think you can conclude that. What you're talking about is priority. Straight off the roundabout there are two lanes and you would expect someone changing lanes to give priority to traffic established in the other lane - just like any lane change. But after the lane markings end it's just a merge like any other. If someone is just ahead of you to your right, I'm not sure how you could claim any priority over them after the point that the road has become a single lane.qualitystreet said:
Conversely, if I'm in L2 and there's no conflict with traffic in L1, I can plough through the hatchings without having to go through the chicane?
The hatch markings denote an area you shouldn't enter unless you can see it's safe to do so. So if it's safe you can enter. I don't know the road at all but I can well imagine that I might decide to enter the hatched area rather than bother to chicane around it. The phrase 'plough through' rather sounds like blundering on without a thought to whether it's a good idea or not though, so I wouldn't describe it like that .Edited by SK425 on Monday 15th December 15:21
I know this roundabout, but I turn right from the Great North Road to Jesmond Dene Road.
In theory, it is definitely a roundabout where you should avoid being alongside anyone else. The
problem, of course, is that it is so busy that it's almost impossible not to be alongside someone.
I don't know when the photograph was taken - I've never seen it as quiet as that.
To go ahead, I think I would use the left lane, and then be especially vigilant. If you use the
middle lane to go ahead, you could have other drivers on both sides of you whilst on the
roundabout. Turning right is even worse than going ahead, as there are two lanes of right-turning
traffic.
In theory, it is definitely a roundabout where you should avoid being alongside anyone else. The
problem, of course, is that it is so busy that it's almost impossible not to be alongside someone.
I don't know when the photograph was taken - I've never seen it as quiet as that.
To go ahead, I think I would use the left lane, and then be especially vigilant. If you use the
middle lane to go ahead, you could have other drivers on both sides of you whilst on the
roundabout. Turning right is even worse than going ahead, as there are two lanes of right-turning
traffic.
Looks like a stupid bit of road. Confusing and ambiguous. But I agree with your assessment OP. Lane 1 cars, theoretically, could sail through whilst lane two should find a gap to merge before the hatching.
I tend to think people treat hatched areas with broken lines as optional lanes far too readily. "Enter if necessary", I believe the terminology is.
I tend to think people treat hatched areas with broken lines as optional lanes far too readily. "Enter if necessary", I believe the terminology is.
Bennet said:
Looks like a stupid bit of road. Confusing and ambiguous. But I agree with your assessment OP. Lane 1 cars, theoretically, could sail through whilst lane two should find a gap to merge before the hatching.
The hatching actually starts before the two lanes drop to one, but why should someone in lane 2 necessarily move into lane 1 before that point? There is room on the road for someone in lane 2 to continue to the end of the lane and drive round the hatching without needing to cross the lane dividing line. If they did that, on what basis could someone behind and to the left claim any priority once the road has dropped to a single lane?I know you (and the OP) are not actually suggesting sailing through from lane 1 is a good idea, but if someone chose to do that I don't think they could claim the priority was in their favour.
It looks like the main purpose of the two lanes is to clear traffic off the roundabout and allow greater flow North on the B1138 onto the roundabout.
Once you are off the roundabout, it is just two lanes merging into one - this could be done at the end of the hatching, but this would make it harder for lane 1 as this is the one that would filter into lane 2 (probably!). The way it is laid out allows sensible 'zipping' to take place with a little bit of leeway if someone in lane 1 isn't allowing the merge to take place. In situations like this there is no right of way - common sense should apply as filtering in turn keeps things flowing best - however many drivers believe they own the 5m space in front of their car and wil actively defend it, resulting in cars fighting it out alongside each other through the hatched zone.
Steve
Once you are off the roundabout, it is just two lanes merging into one - this could be done at the end of the hatching, but this would make it harder for lane 1 as this is the one that would filter into lane 2 (probably!). The way it is laid out allows sensible 'zipping' to take place with a little bit of leeway if someone in lane 1 isn't allowing the merge to take place. In situations like this there is no right of way - common sense should apply as filtering in turn keeps things flowing best - however many drivers believe they own the 5m space in front of their car and wil actively defend it, resulting in cars fighting it out alongside each other through the hatched zone.
Steve
SK425 said:
The hatching actually starts before the two lanes drop to one, but why should someone in lane 2 necessarily move into lane 1 before that point? There is room on the road for someone in lane 2 to continue to the end of the lane and drive round the hatching without needing to cross the lane dividing line. If they did that, on what basis could someone behind and to the left claim any priority once the road has dropped to a single lane?
Are you quite sure about that? - http://goo.gl/btcIGG - it is just about possible for a car to squeeze into lane 1 after the last of the lane divider white lines but it would be very tight indeed. It would conflict with a vehicle already established in lane 1. Plenty of potential for a collision. Driving over the hatchings just demonstrates a lack of forward vision/planning. The impending conflict just happens a few yards further up the road during the period when the bus lane prohibition is in force.Red Devil said:
SK425 said:
The hatching actually starts before the two lanes drop to one, but why should someone in lane 2 necessarily move into lane 1 before that point? There is room on the road for someone in lane 2 to continue to the end of the lane and drive round the hatching without needing to cross the lane dividing line. If they did that, on what basis could someone behind and to the left claim any priority once the road has dropped to a single lane?
Are you quite sure about that? - http://goo.gl/btcIGG - it is just about possible for a car to squeeze into lane 1 after the last of the lane divider white lines but it would be very tight indeed. It would conflict with a vehicle already established in lane 1. Plenty of potential for a collision.Looking at the overhead view, yes, if you were in lane 2 I think that both driving over the lane markings and driving over the hatch markings can be avoided as the road reduces from two lanes to one.
Of course there is potential for collision, as in any situation where two lanes reduce to one, and I'm not advocating blindly carrying on without a thought to the traffic around you. I was responding to a very specific suggestion, first posed by the OP and then by another poster, that having been lane 1 would give you some sort of priority after the point at which the lane markings had ended (i.e. after the point at which there is no longer any 'lane 1' and 'lane 2'). I don't see how that could be the case. Once you reach the point that the number of lanes is 1, not 2, everybody has the responsibility not to drive into each other - which at that point is sorted out by cooperation, not by any system of priority.
In practice I don't think it makes much difference. If I came off the roundabout in lane 2 I'd be looking to establish my position in the merge early and seeking cooperation from the driver behind in lane 1. Once that cooperation is there, I don't think I'd care whether I moved across before or after the lane making ended - the academic question of whether my change in lateral position happens to be a lane change or not is of no interest. But the OP, who I think is quite happy about what to do in practice, was, I think, asking about a specific point of principle.
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