Braking to a stop ding dong (yes, yawn)

[goneape]

I am certain this must have been done to death but a search turned up nothing and there's nothing in the first few pages of the AD forum either so what the hell.

I had a discussion with one of my IAM observers on my last drive about the best technique for bringing the car to a stop. We didn't agree and it ended with me agreeing to do it the IAM way for the purposes of passing the test and hopefully coming to my senses. This I'm now doing, but not convinced yet.

Imagine a situation where you are going to have to stop. Ideally you will brake very early so that the obstruction will have cleared by the time you get to it, but this isn't always possible. The options under consideration:

The IAM way:
Off throttle
On brakes
Clutch down
Stop
Handbrake then neutral, or gear to go (1st).

My way/bad habit:
Off throttle
On brakes
Clutch down
Neutral, clutch up
Stop
Handbrake or gear to go (1st).

The argument is that with the car in neutral I'm coasting, and so am out of control and will die horribly. I did it may way because in my mind the clutch's natural state is to be engaged, so as long as your foot is on the pedal something is wearing - the thrust bearing, IIRC. So better for the clutch to have neutral and pedal up. When I said this my observer looked at me like I was utterly demented.

Fundamentally I don't understand the mechanical difference between having the gear in neutral and having the clutch down. In both techniques there is no connection between the engine and the wheels, so both are coasting, as I see it. In my way I save some wear on the clutch but will be slower to regain "control" because I have to do a whole gear change. In the IAM way the clutch is taking wear during the 5-10 second braking phase but regaining control will be quicker; although having said that, you'll be in the wrong gear for the new speed anyway.

So where am I wrong?

Hope it's sufficiently clear to PH!

Can open, worms all over the floor.

[davepoth]

Neutral before stop is a fault on the driving test too.

Personally I would add four double declutched heel and toe downshifts into that sequence, mainly because I like the noise.

[goneape]

Yes, it's one of the bad habits I've got into. But it seems to have no reason to it, in the case of "definitely will need to stop".

I'm an irritating man in that I won't believe you unless you can provide a logical argument to support your position. The observer couldn't. If both are coasting, what difference does it make, other than failing the test?

They also said, steering technique, thumbs up so you don't dislocate them in a crash and also have better feedback through the wheel. Lovely, I'll have a lot of that.

[Synchromesh]

Look at the output / result of each method on your driving (rather than a "right" or "wrong" input). Does doing it "your way" ever cause you any issues?

ETA: Is this issue important in the grand scheme of improving your own driving as a whole? Is it the best area to be giving 'processing power'?

Edited by Synchromesh on Wednesday 11th December 21:38

[BertBert]

If there is an argument for the IAM version, perhaps it's that it requires less things to do. One foot down on clutch rather than down and up and you don't take your hand off the wheel and change into neutral (until you have stopped). Not sure I get a "coasting" argument.

On the thumb thing, in my time with people moving their thumbs out the way, I've seen loads of people moving their thumb up far too far. That has the effect of turning their wrists in and giving a much worse position on the wheel. I'm not sure I really buy the more feel argument.

Bert

[GT6k]

So what happens if I do the test in my wife's Kia, which has a foot operated parking brake.

[waremark]

Neither would generally be considered coasting if the car is being kept under control by braking. But why take your left hand off the wheel before you have come to a stop? I certainly don't believe there is any significance in the mechanical wear argument. Then when you have come to a stop you can decide whether to take neutral or go straight to first without in a single action.

Is it important? No. Will you fail an advanced driving test (the drive being generally good) if you take neutral before stopping? No. But it seems slightly neater and tidier.

[SK425]

waremark said:

Neither would generally be considered coasting if the car is being kept under control by braking. But why take your left hand off the wheel before you have come to a stop?

The OP's already answered that - he believes he's reducing mechanical wear. And presumably he believes that the benefits of that outweigh the disadvantages, if he feels there are any, of not keeping both hands on the wheel.

waremark said:

I certainly don't believe there is any significance in the mechanical wear argument.

Neither do I. Nor is it clear to me which sequence would involve more wear. The IAM observer's method involves keeping the clutch down for longer periods. The OP's method involves actuating the mechanism twice as many times.

waremark said:

Then when you have come to a stop you can decide whether to take neutral or go straight to first without in a single action.

Is it important? No. Will you fail an advanced driving test (the drive being generally good) if you take neutral before stopping? No. But it seems slightly neater and tidier.

It seems that way to me too. It seems to me that the OP is just doing extra unnecessary stuff which he might just as well not bother doing, but that's because I don't share his belief that there's a significant mechanical wear saving to be had. I think the OP is quite right to question why suggested changes are supposed to be better.

I hope the observer and the OP are both giving observation, anticipation and planning on approach to hazards rather higher priority than minor details about when you push the pedals and levers.

Edited by SK425 on Thursday 12th December 10:28

[james_gt3rs]

goneape said:

So better for the clutch to have neutral and pedal up. When I said this my observer looked at me like I was utterly demented.

My argument would be that your method wouldn't affect control so don't worry, and I would do it purely so I don't have to hold teh clutch down as long - not a problem in most cars but if you had a very heavy clutch then it would make a difference.

[Snowboy]

Thinking about it, I actually use both methods at different times.
It depends how quickly I'm slowing, how soon I might need to start again, how fast I was going.

It's really a conscious decision, it just a case of doing the most sensible thing for the moment.

[sixspeed]

Cannot for the life of me understand why you would be concerned with getting the gear into neutral when you are trying to stop for an object/avoid a collision. Having said that, if I'm in very slow crawling traffic, I will do this as its just more comfortable, but that isn't the circumstances I believe the OP was suggesting. Sounds more like an emergency stop situation, the way I read it...

Still, it's not half as bad as people that dip the clutch as they go round every corner or come up to every junction (and I mean dipping the clutch at about 30mph here, staying in gear, and then engaging the clutch again after they're through the corner). I have several friends that do it and it drives (ha!) me insane when I'm in the car with them. I've no idea where people get this habit from. They certainly wouldn't have passed their test doing it, but I've seen enough occurances of it that it must come from somewhere! Even my brother did this, and I asked him why on earth he was doing it and he couldn't give me an answer. After enough badgering though, I think he's finally stopped now (though he drives very rarely living in London now).

[rsv gone!]

goneape said:

I'm an irritating man in that I won't believe you unless you can provide a logical argument to support your position. The observer couldn't. If both are coasting, what difference does it make, other than failing the test?

Ultimately, it is their club, with their rules. If you want to be in it......

[R0G]

I never start dipping the clutch until I feel the need to do so to stop it stalling so the clutch pedal is used only as much as necessary - like the brake pedal - in normal braking I would not press the brake pedal to the floor !

To stop putting it in neutral try making a mental note of not moving the left hand from the wheel until you really need to do so - works for me and many others - also prevents gear changes that are not really necessary

[Munter]

sixspeed said:

Still, it's not half as bad as people that dip the clutch as they go round every corner or come up to every junction (and I mean dipping the clutch at about 30mph here, staying in gear, and then engaging the clutch again after they're through the corner). I have several friends that do it and it drives (ha!) me insane when I'm in the car with them. I've no idea where people get this habit from. They certainly wouldn't have passed their test doing it, but I've seen enough occurances of it that it must come from somewhere! Even my brother did this, and I asked him why on earth he was doing it and he couldn't give me an answer. After enough badgering though, I think he's finally stopped now (though he drives very rarely living in London now).

I believe, it's because they are not convinced they'll get around the corner. They have started their emergency stop procedure, so all they have to worry about is stabbing the brake as hard as they can. Once the "danger" has passed, they resume normal operation. That's why some also do it when cars go the other way at night. They can't see well past the headlights coming the other way, so prepare to crash by dipping the clutch.

[richwig83]

To put the car in neutral you have to remove your hand from the steering wheel. Im guessing thats why it would be "not advised"

[With these feet]

Munter said:

sixspeed said:

Still, it's not half as bad as people that dip the clutch as they go round every corner or come up to every junction (and I mean dipping the clutch at about 30mph here, staying in gear, and then engaging the clutch again after they're through the corner). I have several friends that do it and it drives (ha!) me insane when I'm in the car with them. I've no idea where people get this habit from. They certainly wouldn't have passed their test doing it, but I've seen enough occurances of it that it must come from somewhere! Even my brother did this, and I asked him why on earth he was doing it and he couldn't give me an answer. After enough badgering though, I think he's finally stopped now (though he drives very rarely living in London now).

I believe, it's because they are not convinced they'll get around the corner. They have started their emergency stop procedure, so all they have to worry about is stabbing the brake as hard as they can. Once the "danger" has passed, they resume normal operation. That's why some also do it when cars go the other way at night. They can't see well past the headlights coming the other way, so prepare to crash by dipping the clutch.

Reminds me of the biking term "If you got round the corner on the brakes you could have got round off them"
Not an advanced driver but I never coast - always have the car in a gear.
I was however told off doing my bike test CBT. When requested to stop in the box I instictively went down the box so when I stopped I was in 1st and ready to go. The examiner made me keep doing it until I stopped in the box with the bike still in 3rd. Daft if you ask me trying to kick though the gears stationary.

Whilst out in the States a guy drove us about a bit - had a Imprezza STI - and he also coasted round corners and rolled clutch in to junctions. In the end I just blocked it out as he wouldnt see what we were trying to explain.

[p1esk]

rsv gone! said:

goneape said:

I'm an irritating man in that I won't believe you unless you can provide a logical argument to support your position. The observer couldn't. If both are coasting, what difference does it make, other than failing the test?

Ultimately, it is their club, with their rules. If you want to be in it......

Yes, quite true. It is their club, complete with (at times) overly fussy rules.

If the OP sees sufficient benefit to himself in meeting the requirements and joining the club, all well and good, but I don't see much wrong with what he is preferring to do. I do much the same myself most of the time. I'm not convinced about the need to keep both hands on the steering wheel until the car comes to a halt, or even that both hands need to be on the steering wheel while we are braking, unless the speed is fairly high and/or we are braking firmly.

In the case of a new driver, i.e. a learner, I think one should have both hands on the steering wheel as much of the time as possible, but later on, as one becomes more proficient and experienced, this can be relaxed somewhat. The important thing is to retain the ability to deploy both hands and a firm grip to the steering wheel at short notice should the need arise, or seem likely to arise.

So far as mechanical wear is concerned, I have normally preferred to minimise the time my foot is on the clutch pedal, and as for slipping into neutral before stopping, I don't buy the argument about coasting and not being under full control. If we're in the latter stages of slowing to a halt, with a high gear still engaged, that gear will be relatively useless at the low speed, so we might as well be in neutral; nothing is being jeopardised by so doing. If we want to retain full control and be able to produce immediate acceleration, we need to be in a gear that is appropriate for that speed, which probably means we should already have changed down to a low(ish) gear.

Best wishes all,
Dave - complacency personified.

[SK425]

sixspeed said:

Cannot for the life of me understand why you would be concerned with getting the gear into neutral when you are trying to stop for an object/avoid a collision. Having said that, if I'm in very slow crawling traffic, I will do this as its just more comfortable, but that isn't the circumstances I believe the OP was suggesting. Sounds more like an emergency stop situation, the way I read it...

I think he was just talking about slowing to a stop in the normal course of events - junctions, traffic light queues, parked cars with oncoming traffic and so on.

[p1esk]

goneape said:

Yes, it's one of the bad habits I've got into. But it seems to have no reason to it, in the case of "definitely will need to stop".

I'm an irritating man in that I won't believe you unless you can provide a logical argument to support your position. The observer couldn't. If both are coasting, what difference does it make, other than failing the test?

They also said, steering technique, thumbs up so you don't dislocate them in a crash and also have better feedback through the wheel. Lovely, I'll have a lot of that.

Hmm, are you sure the IAM is where you really want to be?

I'm not criticising you; it's just that I get the impression you're going to find it a protracted and tiresome encounter, and I wonder if it's going to be worth it for you.

Clearly you are a thinking sort of person, and that's the main thing; so my guess is you'll do OK without having to jump through too many unnecessary hoops. Good luck anyhow.

[Snowboy]

p1esk said:

Hmm, are you sure the IAM is where you really want to be?

I'm not criticising you; it's just that I get the impression you're going to find it a protracted and tiresome encounter, and I wonder if it's going to be worth it for you.

Clearly you are a thinking sort of person, and that's the main thing; so my guess is you'll do OK without having to jump through too many unnecessary hoops. Good luck anyhow.

That's why I've never gone for it.
I'm sure they have lots of interesting stuff to say, but I'm not receptive to unsubstantiated rules.

When I used to go rock climbing there were often instructor lead questions about how to set up the safety.
In all cases the answer was ' If it's safe, it's right'.
In introduced the idea that there are lots if correct ways of doing something.

To be forced to use one safe way over another perfectly safe way would irritate me beyond belief.