Enjoyable driving in the wet

[MC Bodge]

It may be a sign of madness, impending middle-age or something else, but I'm increasingly enjoying driving (and riding) in the wet.

I've always enjoyed driving on twisty 2nd & 3rd gear back roads and I enjoy driving on warm, clean tarmac, but I'm finding that I'm enjoying driving on the local ones more when it's wet and slippery.

I do have Uniroyal tyres fitted to our cars, which helps, but from a driving point of view, it takes more thought, anticipation and smoothness to make decent progress in wet, greasy conditions.

It may or not be something to do with finding the 'limits' at lower speeds.

Anybody find this?

[TooMany2cvs]

MC Bodge said:

It may be a sign of madness, impending middle-age or something else, but I'm increasingly enjoying driving (and riding) in the wet.

It may or not be something to do with finding the 'limits' at lower speeds.

Almost certainly.

[quote]Anybody find this?

Oh, yes!

There's nothing worse than a fast car that you just can't even begin to get near the edges of the envelope without risking life, licence, liberty. It's, frankly, dull. Pointless.

I have to admit, I prefer cars that you can play with the limits at semi-reasonable speeds. A nice responsive chassis, skinny tyres, and just about enough power to get it all to properly talk to you.

Once upon a time, back in the day, I seem to recall a Russell Bulgin column in CAR extolling the virtues of -spec. Anybody got a scan they could point me to?

[Nigel_O]

On Wednesday of this week, I needed to get to Leeds (from home, near Stafford). Satnav predicts two hours, so As the weather is inclement, I leave with three hours to spare. Closing in on Stoke, the nice lady on Radio 2 tells me the M6 is closed at Holmes Chapel, but the queue is already at Stoke. M1 is also reported as jammed, so without a map, I decide that the best route is over the top of the peak district.

Once out of Ashbourne, the weather turned very nasty - heavy driving rain and high winds.

However, the roads were deserted and I made (extremely) 'good progress'. I just followed the satnav instructions, which took me from Ashbourne to Bakewell, then through some fantastic scenery, over to Sheffield. Many of the roads were 'B' roads, but the sighting was easy and open and the traffic was almost non-existent.

I arrived at my appointment 40 minutes late, after a 100 mile motorway cruise had morphed into a 180 mile 'B' road blast

It was huge fun, and the main reason was that I didn't take my weekend car (480bhp Fiat Coupe on summer tyres), but I used my everyday hack - an Alfa Gt diesel, which usefully, had four new tyres fitted a couple of weeks ago. With just 150bhp, traction was never going to be an issue, and the speeds weren't all THAT high, but the enjoyment factor was off the scale.

[MC Bodge]

^^ That sounds like an excellent journey and one of those few and far between days when it all comes together.

The enjoyment doesn't necessarily come from horsepower (although the ability to overtake when desirable can help), but it could be argued that a 150bhp Alfa GT isn't that slow in the grand scheme of things.

I've done similar journeys across the Peak in the early morning.
...Unfortunately, the return, via Glossop and the ludicrously under-roaded Mottram-in-Longdendale was a multi-hour traffic jam.

[buachaille193]

I was considering going out tonight, to be honest, but as the central heating has decided to go on the blink then I don't think the missus would have appreciated it.

That, and she'd worry whilst I was out. Doubly not worth the hassle.

[Nigel_O]

MC Bodge said:

The enjoyment doesn't necessarily come from horsepower (although the ability to overtake when desirable can help), but it could be argued that a 150bhp Alfa GT isn't that slow in the grand scheme of things.

I agree - I've had similarly entertaining drives in my son's Mk1 Golf 1.3 - just 60bhp, but very nice handling

I would have to disagree about the Alfa not being slow though - it's punchy enough in the 30 - 70mph range, where it uses its torque quite well, but it definitely can't be called quick. I was completely mullered recently by a 3 litre VW Tuareg and most modern diesel Mercs and BMWs will leave me for dead. However, it stands out as a bit different in a vast sea of boring euroboxes and it returns a vaguely economical 45mpg average, so its acceptable for my 90-mile round trip daily commute. However, its not quick enough for opportunistic overtakes, meaning in A road traffic, I have to trundle along at the same speed as the rest (which seems to be sub-40mph when it rains - why can't people drive properly when it's wet? Its not like it's properly slippery, just a bit less grippy than dry)

[MC Bodge]

Nigel_O said:

I've had similarly entertaining drives in my son's Mk1 Golf 1.3 - just 60bhp, but very nice handling

Likewise, it can be fun in our similarly 'powerful', but probably heavier, 1.2 Fabia with its so-so handling.

Nigel_O said:

I would have to disagree about the Alfa not being slow though - it's punchy enough in the 30 - 70mph range...but it definitely can't be called quick. I was completely mullered recently by a 3 litre VW Tuareg and most modern diesel Mercs and BMWs will leave me for dead.

"Not being slow" isn't necessarily the same thing as being "quick", though. 30-70mph is a useful range for the back roads of the UK.

Compared with a motorbike or, presumably, an Über-tuned Fiat Coupé, a ~2.0 TD isn't FAST, but it's certainly enough to be able to make decent road progress. You just have to accept that stonking overtakes on tiny straights aren't on the cards.

Although there are a lot of fairly powerful cars on the road these days, most drivers don't drive them hard or utilise the performance they have and many will drive in a 'jerky' sort of way that gives them the impression that they are closer to the limit than they are.

The vast majority of people are not interested enough to have 'explored the limits' and so don't really know how vehicles behave.

It was another good, wet day today. Feathering the throttle and 'feeling the road' can be very satisfying.

Edited by MC Bodge on Monday 28th October 19:45

[james_gt3rs]

I enjoy empty, slippery roundabouts. But... I don't like spray, aquaplaning, having to use wipers, slowing down for puddles you don't know how deep they are, people driving slowly...

So prefer hot summer tarmac personally!

[waremark]

Nigel_O said:

I was completely mullered recently by a 3 litre VW Tuareg and most modern diesel Mercs and BMWs will leave me for dead.

Or Jags. I took my 3.0S (diesel) XF Estate for my driving weekend in the hilly north and it wss very quick indeed on the minor roads, and a great overtaking machine. It was a very wet weekend, but it was generally possible to keep up a good pace. Exceptions were where it was necessary to slow right down because potholes full of water could not be avoided, and sometimes the rain was hard enough to limit visibility. I drove several cars, and none were particularly badly affected by standing water, although I was always alert to a potential problem.

[Nigel_O]

waremark said:

Or Jags. .

Agreed - any 3-litre + diesel is going to be indecently quick - I really wanted a 320CLS before I bought the Alfa, but I needed to get closer to 50mpg

Reminds me of one of my other memorable drives - I was in my Coupe, running about 350bhp at the time - I followed an Audi allroad diesel across some gorgeous roads in north Wales - he clearly knew the roads well, but his driving was smooth, controlled, safe and quick - I struggled to hang onto his tail, despite much more power. Had it been wet, he'd have left me for dead

[p1esk]

waremark said:

Nigel_O said:

I was completely mullered recently by a 3 litre VW Tuareg and most modern diesel Mercs and BMWs will leave me for dead.

Or Jags. I took my 3.0S (diesel) XF Estate for my driving weekend in the hilly north and it wss very quick indeed on the minor roads, and a great overtaking machine. It was a very wet weekend, but it was generally possible to keep up a good pace. Worst exception was where it was necessary to slow right down because of some aged pillock in an old Pug 406 HDi.

Yeah, sorry, Mark.

[waremark]

p1esk said:

waremark said:

Nigel_O said:

I was completely mullered recently by a 3 litre VW Tuareg and most modern diesel Mercs and BMWs will leave me for dead.

Or Jags. I took my 3.0S (diesel) XF Estate for my driving weekend in the hilly north and it wss very quick indeed on the minor roads, and a great overtaking machine. It was a very wet weekend, but it was generally possible to keep up a good pace. Worst exception was where it was necessary to slow right down because of some aged pillock in an old Pug 406 HDi.

Yeah, sorry, Mark.

Not quite an exact quote if my post!

We could have introduced our CUBs if we had met up! The Jag is 1 CUB - Leeds number which my mother got in 1960.

[p1esk]

waremark said:

p1esk said:

waremark said:

Nigel_O said:

I was completely mullered recently by a 3 litre VW Tuareg and most modern diesel Mercs and BMWs will leave me for dead.

Or Jags. I took my 3.0S (diesel) XF Estate for my driving weekend in the hilly north and it wss very quick indeed on the minor roads, and a great overtaking machine. It was a very wet weekend, but it was generally possible to keep up a good pace. Worst exception was where it was necessary to slow right down because of some aged pillock in an old Pug 406 HDi.

Yeah, sorry, Mark.

Not quite an exact quote of my post!

We could have introduced our CUBs if we had met up! The Jag is 1 CUB - Leeds number which my mother got in 1960.

No, not an exact quote, but a harmless distortion I'd say.

I remember you telling me about your CUB number plate when we met at Eaton Socon some years back. Anyhow I haven't been overtaken by 1 CUB, I would have remembered it.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[waremark]

p1esk said:

No, not an exact quote, but a harmless distortion I'd say.

I remember you telling me about your CUB number plate when we met at Eaton Socon some years back. Anyhow I haven't been overtaken by 1 CUB, I would have remembered it.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

Or you overtaken me?

Dave, try another aduk day, and set the terms of ref as trying to drive like a chauffeur.

[p1esk]

waremark said:

p1esk said:

No, not an exact quote, but a harmless distortion I'd say.

I remember you telling me about your CUB number plate when we met at Eaton Socon some years back. Anyhow I haven't been overtaken by 1 CUB, I would have remembered it.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

Or you overtaken me?

Dave, try another aduk day, and set the terms of ref as trying to drive like a chauffeur.

Well thanks, Mark, but I suspect my approach to driving has changed too much for me to be able to make a useful contribution. Most people on ADUK days will be looking to go the mainstream advanced route, IAM/RoSPA and ultimately HPC etc., and I can't escape the feeling that most of what I might say or do would at best be a distraction, and possibly just too controversial.

I'm also noting that the more recent ADUK days seem to be involving larger groups of participants, and it is good to see their increasing popularity, but I have a preference for small groups like we had in the early days.

[waremark]

p1esk said:

waremark said:

p1esk said:

No, not an exact quote, but a harmless distortion I'd say.

I remember you telling me about your CUB number plate when we met at Eaton Socon some years back. Anyhow I haven't been overtaken by 1 CUB, I would have remembered it.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

Or you overtaken me?

Dave, try another aduk day, and set the terms of ref as trying to drive like a chauffeur.

Well thanks, Mark, but I suspect my approach to driving has changed too much for me to be able to make a useful contribution. Most people on ADUK days will be looking to go the mainstream advanced route, IAM/RoSPA and ultimately HPC etc., and I can't escape the feeling that most of what I might say or do would at best be a distraction, and possibly just too controversial.

I'm also noting that the more recent ADUK days seem to be involving larger groups of participants, and it is good to see their increasing popularity, but I have a preference for small groups like we had in the early days.

If attenders are not open minded they ought to be. The extent of your interest in driving makes you a suitable attendee.

[Fantomx]

I remember having great fun I my re mapped BMW 335d 341 bhp and 710Nm over and around the Lake District a few years ago, torrential rain and traction control light flashing a lot. 2 large overnight bags in the boot to keep the rear more pinned. Great drive!

[MC Bodge]

Fantomx said:

re mapped BMW 335d 341 bhp and 710Nm over and around the Lake District a few years ago, torrential rain and traction control light flashing a lot

Quite precise dyno figures there ;
If you'd had less of an excess the traction control might have had an easier time!

[waremark]

MC Bodge said:

Fantomx said:

re mapped BMW 335d 341 bhp and 710Nm over and around the Lake District a few years ago, torrential rain and traction control light flashing a lot

Quite precise dyno figures there ;
If you'd had less of an excess the traction control might have had an easier time!

So should it be considered bad driving to rely on the traction control system to measure out the power? I am neutral on this. I personally try to drive in a way which does not rely on the traction control, but just as I think it is appropriate sometimes to take advantage of the full performance of the car, if the traction control system allows you to use more of the performance in adverse conditions then perhaps it is 'good driving' to take advantage.

Views?

[p1esk]

waremark said:

MC Bodge said:

Fantomx said:

re mapped BMW 335d 341 bhp and 710Nm over and around the Lake District a few years ago, torrential rain and traction control light flashing a lot

Quite precise dyno figures there ;
If you'd had less of an excess the traction control might have had an easier time!

So should it be considered bad driving to rely on the traction control system to measure out the power? I am neutral on this. I personally try to drive in a way which does not rely on the traction control, but just as I think it is appropriate sometimes to take advantage of the full performance of the car, if the traction control system allows you to use more of the performance in adverse conditions then perhaps it is 'good driving' to take advantage.

Views?

In the period before we had traction control, I would say good driving would ensure that any loss of traction was limited, by the skill of the driver, to a level at which full control of the car was assured. In my mind that meant he could have a bit of fun without safety being compromised. Example: in my RWD Jaguar days I often used to help the tail round on a wet roundabout, and I never felt at all guilty about it.

With cars now being so much more technically sophisticated, I imagine any driver can now achieve more performance from them than hitherto, and the car will maintain safety, unless the speed is grossly excessive: there are limits, even now.

So, I would say it is good driving to make responsible use of what you have available, but I can't see the fun element as being quite the same.

Best wishes all,
Dave.