Heel and toe advice

[DocSteve]

Hi,

I've not had the need to try this for some time, and certainly not since I started AD training and track work as I have had SMG/PDK cars for a while (yes, I know, I know...)

However, I've just decided to get a daily driver Focus ST estate and I'm already liking the beast. Apart from the FWD characteristics and slightly irritating torque steer I reckon it's a cracking car but I want to improve my footwork in a manual car. Although I don't really intend to take this one on the track I still think it would be a good opportunity. I've had a few minutes here or there on empty roads where I've attempted H&T (albeit in work shoes) but I'm struggling with the technique and either find myself missing the accelerator altogether or having to push down too hard on the brake pedal in order to reach it properly as it is considerably lower than the brake.

It seems that I would need to adapt the way I generally press the brake pedal (i.e. angle in more from the R side) to try and get it to work smoothly but I may just be being a muppet. I've found a few videos on Youtube but nothing that helpful.

Anyone got any useful tips or resources? I guess I could book some more days with Don Palmer or someone similar but this seems like something I should be able to master myself!

Thanks
Steve

[davepoth]

First off, practice in proper shoes. It's much harder in anything with a thick sole.

There are several ways of positioning your foot, depending on the pedal layout. For pedals that are close together and quite level you'll get away with tapping the accelerator with your little toe while keeping your big toe on the brake. For larger pedal gaps and pedals that are offset you'll need to use the ball of your foot on the brake and the heel on the accelerator, with quite a bit of foot twisting involved. There are obviously lots of in betweens using the side of the foot.

Practice in a stationary car, just switching your right foot between the accelerator, brake, and H/T position. Get yourself in a seating position to watch your feet and practice the moves. Building up the muscle memory is important IME.

On the road, concentrate on getting the brake right before getting the blip and the clutch perfect - keeping your toe stationary while moving every other part of the leg is tricky.

[StressedDave]

If you're developing the muscle memory in this manner, make sure you do it with the engine running - you want the brake servo providing its usual assistance to give the same pedal pressure while developing the technique as you'll get on the open road...

[7db]

DocSteve said:

I'm struggling with the technique and either find myself missing the accelerator altogether or having to push down too hard on the brake pedal in order to reach it properly as it is considerably lower than the brake.

You will find HnT easier with a firmly press on the brake as it gives a really stable platform for the blip, and then you can think about how you ease off the brake once the change is made.

If you aren't braking hard, then perhaps HnT not necessary?

[CrutyRammers]

It takes a while to get the feel, and in some cars is virtually impossible due to crappy pedal layout. Practice on quiet roads is the way forwards, it will be jerky for some time!

[walsh]

I found it easier to perfect straight rev-matching before the braking period. Once I had that built into my everyday driving, I moved on to h&t by driving up and down the box on a straight road for about an hour.

And I still struggle with it to be honest. It something I only ever use when really on it (normally without thinking), most of the time I revmatch before braking, can get the change out of the way, and left foot brake in the correct gear so I can transition back onto the power at the apex.

I will echo the above post, In that it works better when HARD on the brakes.

• Oh, the first few times you try this, you may try and headbutt the windscreen, Especially in a new car with the hyper assisted brakes they all appear to have.

[walsh]

And another point, how big are you, and how close are the pedals on the focus? It’s the wrong was to do it, But I learned to do this in an astravan wearing boots. Having the footprint of a yeti, Means that I can move my foot over on the brake, and catch the throttle with the side of my foot, rather than heal, and no rotation was needed. Effectively moved my knee toward the drivers door for the blip

Worked though.

[DocSteve]

7db said:

You will find HnT easier with a firmly press on the brake as it gives a really stable platform for the blip, and then you can think about how you ease off the brake once the change is made.

If you aren't braking hard, then perhaps HnT not necessary?

Yes, I think it's probably not necessary in some of the practice situations I've tried it in - I was trying to practice during relatively normal driving but I think you're right that I need to be hard on the brakes to make it easier.

Thanks for the advice all, I will spend some time practicing. Good tip about the servo, I realised this whilst trying it with the engine off earlier! Btw I am six foot with size 10 feet and there is a reasonable gap between the accelerator and brake, with the brake being a fair bit above the accelerator. The brake is very sensitive, especially compared with my other car (far too over-assisted I think).

Steve

[7db]

FWIW, I had exactly the same issue practising HnT whilst wafting at the brake: it doesn't really work that well. Also you miss one of the points of HnT (it's not just to compress the system, but it's to allow braking after the change making the entry decision as late as possible).

Empty slip roads are rather good places to practice (particularly downhill ones if you can find one) -- you are making a large speed change, and if no other vehicles to confuse there's a good opportunity to have an extended firm brake.

A further thought on mechanics - you could try an inside-out HnT - foot angled the other way. Depends on your orthotics...

[BertBert]

I find it fruitless in over braked cars like audis and minis, so I don't bother.

Much nicer in proper cars like my boxster or 911.

Bert

[MC Bodge]

BertBert said:

I find it fruitless in over braked cars like audis and minis, so I don't bother

It does take practice, but it can be done in an over-servoed car. When you've managed it, you can do it in most cars.

[BertBert]

Been trying for years, so ain't going to happen snug time soon. Frankly it's not worth the effort!
Bert

[davepoth]

StressedDave said:

If you're developing the muscle memory in this manner, make sure you do it with the engine running - you want the brake servo providing its usual assistance to give the same pedal pressure while developing the technique as you'll get on the open road...

You know, I think I'd disagree with that. It's the pedal (and foot) position that's more important, not the pressure IMO. For learning, I think having the extra resistance would make it a bit easier to keep your foot in the right place.

[StressedDave]

I'd be inordinately surprised if and drivers work off pedal position when braking and therefore my original argument still stands. In fact I've only ever driven one vehicle which used pedal position to determine braking force - a Mercedes E-Class with brake by wire. There's probably a reason it never caught on...

[MC Bodge]

Lots of practice is the key. ie. during all driving.

I taught myself to do it and find that I can do it in different cars that I drive.

Getting the hang of rev matching (pushing the stick into the new gear and engaging the clutch) without heel and toe is important.

When you've mastered the heel and toe, add double-de-clutching too. It's certainly not necessary in a modern car, and I wasn't convinced, but it can give extremely smooth (and mechanically sympathetic) shifts and, when you can do it quickly and smoothly, is satisfying to get right.

[BertBert]

MC Bodge said:

When you've mastered the heel and toe, add double-de-clutching too. It's certainly not necessary in a modern car, and I wasn't convinced, but it can give extremely smooth (and mechanically sympathetic) shifts and, when you can do it quickly and smoothly, is satisfying to get right.

Well I have already admitted that my H&T technique is flawed as I can only do it in properly braked cars, but... I'd argue that DDC doesn't seem to produce any smoother or better changes than rev-matching (with HnT or not). I'm intrigued as to how/why it's better. As the clutch drags anyway, a rev match does a good job of easing the synchro's work so how does DDC make a difference in a modern car?

Bert

[SK425]

BertBert said:

I'm intrigued as to how/why it's better.

Are you sufficiently intrigued to try it and see?

[BertBert]

SK425 said:

Are you sufficiently intrigued to try it and see?

Ahh, thereby hangs a tale (tail?). Back in the day, I had a very rusty BMW 2002 (my second car). Along with the rust and what turned out to be a chronic penchant for over-heating, the synchros were buggered. So I happily DDC'd my way through 2 years and 40k miles.

So I thought that DDC'ing was the way to go.... until a few years later I went out as pax with a race driver in a Caterham. His gear changes were brilliant, quick and smooth. So it turned out that he rev-matched (HnT obviously), but didn't DDC. I tried it and never looked back.

So, yes, tried it, been there, done that and and am currently of the opinion that if you need to use DDC as your synchros are buggered then fine. But the technique does not improve over using rev-matching when the synchros are working fine. I can also surmise the reason...

When you need to DDC, you blip (or calmly raise the revs) to match the clutch being up to spin up the front of the gearbox. Then when the clutch goes down, you need to do it again to rev-match (or do one long blip). If the alternative is a graunchy change, then it works fine. If the synchros are happy in their role, then it is an unnecessary slowing of the process which neither makes the action smoother nor quicker. Any helping of the synchros is done as even when down the clutch drags on the blip.

Hence the question!
Bert

[RobM77]

I SDC rev match every downchange in every vehicle I drive, which obviously involves H&T quite often. I can DDC effectively, but my general opinion is that it's not worth the trouble for the extra benefit it gives me - just a personal opinion mind you.

[SK425]

BertBert said:

So, yes, tried it, been there, done that and and am currently of the opinion that if you need to use DDC as your synchros are buggered then fine.

That's fair enough then

BertBert said:

If the synchros are happy in their role, then it is an unnecessary slowing of the process

Interesting. I use DDC sometimes to make a change quicker. The lower the gear and/or the higher the revs, the more noticeable an un-rev matched change will be (whatever technique I've attempted). I find the feel of the gear lever slotting into the new position when DDC'ing gives me a useful indication of whether I have matched the revs correctly before bringing the clutch up. I'm hoping to feel no resistance from the synchros and there is time to make an adjustment if I do feel resistance. And either way, my increased confidence that, on raising the clutch, the revs really will be matched can lead to a quicker gear change in situations where a small mismatch is going to be embarrassingly obvious.

Perhaps that just means I'm not good enough at SDC rev matching .