Overtaking technique - a couple of queries
Discussion
This is prompted by a drive to Scotland last weekend and more specifically the A68.
As expected, plenty of 45mph dawdlers in force but some very nice roads, decent visibility and a fair number of opportunities for overtaking.
1) I note in Roadcraft is suggests that one should maintain speed and move to the 'oncoming' lane to check everything is clear before accelerating. If I feel my observation is adequate and the road suitably clear, I'm willing to commence my acceleration before moving out - in doing so, more rapid speed difference, quicker overtake and reduced time exposed to danger. I also find it a more fluid movement.
What do you guys normally do?
2) When negotiating a queue of cars in an overtake. You spot a gap a couple of cars ahead, move across and accelerate, overtake said cars and then you need to get back into the gap you originally spotted. Owing to your increased speed relative to the queue, in order to get back into the gap you need to brake to match their speed and move across (or enter the gap and brake at the same time if that makes sense).
Is this reasonable? Or am I accelerating too quickly and I shouldn't need to brake on returning into the queue?
As expected, plenty of 45mph dawdlers in force but some very nice roads, decent visibility and a fair number of opportunities for overtaking.
1) I note in Roadcraft is suggests that one should maintain speed and move to the 'oncoming' lane to check everything is clear before accelerating. If I feel my observation is adequate and the road suitably clear, I'm willing to commence my acceleration before moving out - in doing so, more rapid speed difference, quicker overtake and reduced time exposed to danger. I also find it a more fluid movement.
What do you guys normally do?
2) When negotiating a queue of cars in an overtake. You spot a gap a couple of cars ahead, move across and accelerate, overtake said cars and then you need to get back into the gap you originally spotted. Owing to your increased speed relative to the queue, in order to get back into the gap you need to brake to match their speed and move across (or enter the gap and brake at the same time if that makes sense).
Is this reasonable? Or am I accelerating too quickly and I shouldn't need to brake on returning into the queue?
I do brake on returning, where required to, such as if I'm overtaking a line of cars one by one as oncoming traffic allows. I try not to cause the car i'v just overtaken to have to brake with me though. If I feel this may be the case due to not enough room then I tend to wait until I can overtake both of the cars at once. In a perfect world, the overtaken car would pull back to leave you enough space to cut in but this never happens, so I never plan it into an overtake.
In terms of moving out to check or committing before moving out, I tend to play it by ear. If it's something large in front and/or the road is a very slight bend then moving out just to have a better idea is best. If its only a small car that you can easily see through/round and the road is deserted then I do commit before moving out (checking my mirrors for others trying to do the same from behind me obviously)
I do tend to be a cautious overtaker though, maybe more than I need to be at times. Generally leaving myself quite significant margins for error.
In terms of moving out to check or committing before moving out, I tend to play it by ear. If it's something large in front and/or the road is a very slight bend then moving out just to have a better idea is best. If its only a small car that you can easily see through/round and the road is deserted then I do commit before moving out (checking my mirrors for others trying to do the same from behind me obviously)
I do tend to be a cautious overtaker though, maybe more than I need to be at times. Generally leaving myself quite significant margins for error.
Edited by ymwoods on Saturday 31st August 06:45
g3org3y said:
1) I note in Roadcraft is suggests that one should maintain speed and move to the 'oncoming' lane to check everything is clear before accelerating. If I feel my observation is adequate and the road suitably clear, I'm willing to commence my acceleration before moving out - in doing so, more rapid speed difference, quicker overtake and reduced time exposed to danger. I also find it a more fluid movement.
What do you guys normally do?
What I want is to have taken in all the information I need before I commit to passing. More often than not I find that involves having a look from an offside position, but there are certainly occasions where I'm happy to commit from behind them on my side of the road. I'm not sure whether the latter is actually quicker if you measure the duration of the overtake from the point of committing to the point you return to your side of the road ahead of them. Of course, if you are happy to commit from behind them and yet you match speed, move out and only then accelerate, that will take longer than just getting on with it but I don't think that's what Roadcraft is suggesting. I think the point is that in general you will be in a much better position to decide whether to commit (and the answer might well be 'no') from offside. If you only take the overtakes that you can safely commit to from your side of the road, you will miss a lot of opportunities. Finally, I'm not sure if it's what you meant, but don't equate "time spent offside" with "time exposed to danger". What do you guys normally do?
g3org3y said:
2) When negotiating a queue of cars in an overtake. You spot a gap a couple of cars ahead, move across and accelerate, overtake said cars and then you need to get back into the gap you originally spotted. Owing to your increased speed relative to the queue, in order to get back into the gap you need to brake to match their speed and move across (or enter the gap and brake at the same time if that makes sense).
Is this reasonable? Or am I accelerating too quickly and I shouldn't need to brake on returning into the queue?
"shouldn't need to brake" would, I think, be putting it too strongly. This was your planned landing spot from the outset so ideally your plan (which you would work out before you start) would involve slowing to match speed before moving back into the gap. I don't see any reason to deny yourself use of the brakes in that plan. Sometimes that lofty ideal isn't quite achievable though and you might have to go with a plan in which you have not yet finished braking as you move back in. I don't think that's necessarily unreasonable, as long as you don't deposit yourself into the space in front of somebody, hard on the anchors causing them great alarm and distress.Is this reasonable? Or am I accelerating too quickly and I shouldn't need to brake on returning into the queue?
SK425 said:
What I want is to have taken in all the information I need before I commit to passing. More often than not I find that involves having a look from an offside position, but there are certainly occasions where I'm happy to commit from behind them on my side of the road. I'm not sure whether the latter is actually quicker if you measure the duration of the overtake from the point of committing to the point you return to your side of the road ahead of them. Of course, if you are happy to commit from behind them and yet you match speed, move out and only then accelerate, that will take longer than just getting on with it but I don't think that's what Roadcraft is suggesting. I think the point is that in general you will be in a much better position to decide whether to commit (and the answer might well be 'no') from offside. If you only take the overtakes that you can safely commit to from your side of the road, you will miss a lot of opportunities. Finally, I'm not sure if it's what you meant, but don't equate "time spent offside" with "time exposed to danger".
"shouldn't need to brake" would, I think, be putting it too strongly. This was your planned landing spot from the outset so ideally your plan (which you would work out before you start) would involve slowing to match speed before moving back into the gap. I don't see any reason to deny yourself use of the brakes in that plan. Sometimes that lofty ideal isn't quite achievable though and you might have to go with a plan in which you have not yet finished braking as you move back in.
By which time you've lost your slot."shouldn't need to brake" would, I think, be putting it too strongly. This was your planned landing spot from the outset so ideally your plan (which you would work out before you start) would involve slowing to match speed before moving back into the gap. I don't see any reason to deny yourself use of the brakes in that plan. Sometimes that lofty ideal isn't quite achievable though and you might have to go with a plan in which you have not yet finished braking as you move back in.
How is this 'Advanced Driving'?
goldblum said:
SK425 said:
What I want is to have taken in all the information I need before I commit to passing. More often than not I find that involves having a look from an offside position, but there are certainly occasions where I'm happy to commit from behind them on my side of the road. I'm not sure whether the latter is actually quicker if you measure the duration of the overtake from the point of committing to the point you return to your side of the road ahead of them. Of course, if you are happy to commit from behind them and yet you match speed, move out and only then accelerate, that will take longer than just getting on with it but I don't think that's what Roadcraft is suggesting. I think the point is that in general you will be in a much better position to decide whether to commit (and the answer might well be 'no') from offside. If you only take the overtakes that you can safely commit to from your side of the road, you will miss a lot of opportunities. Finally, I'm not sure if it's what you meant, but don't equate "time spent offside" with "time exposed to danger".
"shouldn't need to brake" would, I think, be putting it too strongly. This was your planned landing spot from the outset so ideally your plan (which you would work out before you start) would involve slowing to match speed before moving back into the gap. I don't see any reason to deny yourself use of the brakes in that plan. Sometimes that lofty ideal isn't quite achievable though and you might have to go with a plan in which you have not yet finished braking as you move back in.
By which time you've lost your slot."shouldn't need to brake" would, I think, be putting it too strongly. This was your planned landing spot from the outset so ideally your plan (which you would work out before you start) would involve slowing to match speed before moving back into the gap. I don't see any reason to deny yourself use of the brakes in that plan. Sometimes that lofty ideal isn't quite achievable though and you might have to go with a plan in which you have not yet finished braking as you move back in.
How is this 'Advanced Driving'?
Which slot am I losing - the intended landing spot? Why am I losing it?
What part of this isn't Advanced Driving? Forming a plan before you start? Aspiring to avoid moving back in in front of someone while your brake lights are still showing? Accepting that that aspiration won't always be achievable? Or am I misunderstanding you?
SK425 said:
I'm not sure whether the latter is actually quicker if you measure the duration of the overtake from the point of committing to the point you return to your side of the road ahead of them. Of course, if you are happy to commit from behind them and yet you match speed, move out and only then accelerate, that will take longer than just getting on with it but I don't think that's what Roadcraft is suggesting. I think the point is that in general you will be in a much better position to decide whether to commit (and the answer might well be 'no') from offside. If you only take the overtakes that you can safely commit to from your side of the road, you will miss a lot of opportunities. Finally, I'm not sure if it's what you meant, but don't equate "time spent offside" with "time exposed to danger".
+1If you accelerate before moving out you can be committed, therefore exposed to danger, before you have the offside view.
Sitting in an offside position and not accelerating you are arguably even safer than before you moved out because you have a better view.
I never used to worry about using brakes when completing an overtake and moving into the return gap, until vonhosen came along and said we ought to avoid showing brake lights to the driver we have just passed, and I agree that is the nicest way of doing it.
Having said that, you do need a pretty large return gap to be able to do it; although using a gear that provides good acceleration for the overtake, also gives you more engine braking to get the speed down again and enter the return gap without using the brakes.
Unfortunately, when it comes to overtaking, most drivers do not help us these days with their close following style!
Best wishes all,
Dave.
Having said that, you do need a pretty large return gap to be able to do it; although using a gear that provides good acceleration for the overtake, also gives you more engine braking to get the speed down again and enter the return gap without using the brakes.
Unfortunately, when it comes to overtaking, most drivers do not help us these days with their close following style!
Best wishes all,
Dave.
You're committed to the overtake (ie your TED has started) when you can no longer stop behind the vehicle in front if he bakes hard to a stop.
Always commit from the place where you have the most information. Probably the offside.
If you miss your slot by doing it properly, then do it properly and miss your slot. The alternative is driving dangerously.
Always commit from the place where you have the most information. Probably the offside.
If you miss your slot by doing it properly, then do it properly and miss your slot. The alternative is driving dangerously.
p1esk said:
I never used to worry about using brakes when completing an overtake and moving into the return gap, until vonhosen came along and said we ought to avoid showing brake lights to the driver we have just passed, and I agree that is the nicest way of doing it.
Having said that, you do need a pretty large return gap to be able to do it; although using a gear that provides good acceleration for the overtake, also gives you more engine braking to get the speed down again and enter the return gap without using the brakes.
Unfortunately, when it comes to overtaking, most drivers do not help us these days with their close following style!
Best wishes all,
Dave.
You don't need a larger gap, you just need to be accurate with the throttle & judgement of acceleration sense.Having said that, you do need a pretty large return gap to be able to do it; although using a gear that provides good acceleration for the overtake, also gives you more engine braking to get the speed down again and enter the return gap without using the brakes.
Unfortunately, when it comes to overtaking, most drivers do not help us these days with their close following style!
Best wishes all,
Dave.
vonhosen said:
p1esk said:
I never used to worry about using brakes when completing an overtake and moving into the return gap, until vonhosen came along and said we ought to avoid showing brake lights to the driver we have just passed, and I agree that is the nicest way of doing it.
Having said that, you do need a pretty large return gap to be able to do it; although using a gear that provides good acceleration for the overtake, also gives you more engine braking to get the speed down again and enter the return gap without using the brakes.
Unfortunately, when it comes to overtaking, most drivers do not help us these days with their close following style!
Best wishes all,
Dave.
You don't need a larger gap, you just need to be accurate with the throttle & judgement of acceleration sense.Having said that, you do need a pretty large return gap to be able to do it; although using a gear that provides good acceleration for the overtake, also gives you more engine braking to get the speed down again and enter the return gap without using the brakes.
Unfortunately, when it comes to overtaking, most drivers do not help us these days with their close following style!
Best wishes all,
Dave.
Of course if you're highly skilled in this technique you will achieve the objective more readily than the rest of us might; but even then there are limits to what can be done, and a large(ish) gap is going to be needed for most of us most of the time if a showing of brake lights is to be avoided.Anyhow, the general principle is accepted, at least by me.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
p1esk said:
I'm not sure I quite understand that. It's all a matter of degree, Shirley. Of course if you're highly skilled in this technique you will achieve the objective more readily than the rest of us might; but even then there are limits to what can be done, and a large(ish) gap is going to be needed for most of us most of the time if a showing of brake lights is to be avoided.
I think when drivers show brake lights in this situation it's often a sign of the 'I'm overtaking so I must keep my foot on the floor as long as possible' philosophy. Providing you identify the gap in advance it's usually possible to lose most of the speed differential in advance. Of course if you're highly skilled in this technique you will achieve the objective more readily than the rest of us might; but even then there are limits to what can be done, and a large(ish) gap is going to be needed for most of us most of the time if a showing of brake lights is to be avoided.I do most of my overtaking on the bike so it's easier for me. But there is a lot of satisfaction in dispatching a long queue of 40-50 traffic without exceeding 60, and with the option of pulling in without brakes at every gap.
I have had the fortune to have been coached by a few Class1 Trafpols...the advice that I gave to my IAM punters was influenced by a couple of very basic suggestions;
A) On a non dual carriageway - you need a differential of 15 mph between you and your target - otherwise you are likely to be offside - in a danger zone to you and anything towards for too long.
B) Before you go for an overtake - I would suggest that a part of Advanced driving is to ask yourself - 'Should I feckin' bother at all?'
There is of course a difference between IAM Observing and advanced driving - but observing a few basics can be informative...(This also applies to the car in your rear mirror when considering an overtake of course)
Is the car ahead in good nick? Is the speed steady or variable?Is it an old geezer? A young lad with his Saxo?...many, many other factors...I had a very full 9 hour day with a CP1...from my notes on the day;
""Swopped drivers every half hour and worked on another item of expertise each cycle…positioning ( I asked the Boss to repeat his P1 P2 P3 lessons he gave me a year ago - very useful and the others caught on quickly)…great way to get drivers thinking of position and WHY to take what!
Lunch and got an Insignia - 6 gears and a much better box than the Vectra - few driver changes and home via B roads…almost never out of second or third gears all day…mostly ‘cap it at 70’… reading the limits points and trusting the limit points…surprising how fast you can corner SAFELY under expert supervision…NO BRAKES NO BRAKES NO BRAKES…BIG BRAKES…and in gear for quick progress.
Never done so many overtakes in one day…“there’s you target…look at him..crap driver…if you don’t have the speed differential to get him legally…out drive him…we’ll catch him...we are good drivers…corners coming up …move to contact…catch him when he brakes into and slow out of the corners…got him…where’s the next target"
Judgement?
BOF
A) On a non dual carriageway - you need a differential of 15 mph between you and your target - otherwise you are likely to be offside - in a danger zone to you and anything towards for too long.
B) Before you go for an overtake - I would suggest that a part of Advanced driving is to ask yourself - 'Should I feckin' bother at all?'
There is of course a difference between IAM Observing and advanced driving - but observing a few basics can be informative...(This also applies to the car in your rear mirror when considering an overtake of course)
Is the car ahead in good nick? Is the speed steady or variable?Is it an old geezer? A young lad with his Saxo?...many, many other factors...I had a very full 9 hour day with a CP1...from my notes on the day;
""Swopped drivers every half hour and worked on another item of expertise each cycle…positioning ( I asked the Boss to repeat his P1 P2 P3 lessons he gave me a year ago - very useful and the others caught on quickly)…great way to get drivers thinking of position and WHY to take what!
Lunch and got an Insignia - 6 gears and a much better box than the Vectra - few driver changes and home via B roads…almost never out of second or third gears all day…mostly ‘cap it at 70’… reading the limits points and trusting the limit points…surprising how fast you can corner SAFELY under expert supervision…NO BRAKES NO BRAKES NO BRAKES…BIG BRAKES…and in gear for quick progress.
Never done so many overtakes in one day…“there’s you target…look at him..crap driver…if you don’t have the speed differential to get him legally…out drive him…we’ll catch him...we are good drivers…corners coming up …move to contact…catch him when he brakes into and slow out of the corners…got him…where’s the next target"
Judgement?
BOF
Edited by BOF on Sunday 1st September 18:45
I've read all the replies with interest, but you must remember advanced driving is all about not taking risks, and being safe. Not simply how to drive fast.
I'm retired now but the last twenty years of my time in the police I was an Advanced Driver and I'm still learning.
To address the overtaking issue, first never overtake where there are junctions ahead. Vehicles pulling out into what was your empty oncoming lane will really mess up your overtake.
If you pull out while maintaining the same speed as the vehicle you intend to overtake and then discover the overtake isn't on, you simply steer back to your original side of the road, no frantic braking to tuck back in. You also get a better view of the road ahead before committing.
If it's clear and you go for it, your vehicle will be in a straight line when you accelerate and therefore more stable. Not a big issue most of the time, but if it's wet or you have a powerful car, or both, it can be. I now drive an Ariel Atom and accelerating as you pull out means a weave to the right and then to the left, which under hard acceleration can cause problems, as a friend of mine discovered in his Atom as it flicked him off the road.
And yes it's great to judge your accelerator sense to the point where you can slip back into the line of traffic without touching the brakes, but it's not always possible. In a marked police car people leave you plenty of room to do so, trust me.
PP
I'm retired now but the last twenty years of my time in the police I was an Advanced Driver and I'm still learning.
To address the overtaking issue, first never overtake where there are junctions ahead. Vehicles pulling out into what was your empty oncoming lane will really mess up your overtake.
If you pull out while maintaining the same speed as the vehicle you intend to overtake and then discover the overtake isn't on, you simply steer back to your original side of the road, no frantic braking to tuck back in. You also get a better view of the road ahead before committing.
If it's clear and you go for it, your vehicle will be in a straight line when you accelerate and therefore more stable. Not a big issue most of the time, but if it's wet or you have a powerful car, or both, it can be. I now drive an Ariel Atom and accelerating as you pull out means a weave to the right and then to the left, which under hard acceleration can cause problems, as a friend of mine discovered in his Atom as it flicked him off the road.
And yes it's great to judge your accelerator sense to the point where you can slip back into the line of traffic without touching the brakes, but it's not always possible. In a marked police car people leave you plenty of room to do so, trust me.
PP
I've read all the replies with interest, but you must remember advanced driving is all about not taking risks, and being safe. Not simply how to drive fast.
I'm retired now but the last twenty years of my time in the police I was an Advanced Driver and I'm still learning.
To address the overtaking issue, first never overtake where there are junctions ahead. Vehicles pulling out into what was your empty oncoming lane will really mess up your overtake.
If you pull out while maintaining the same speed as the vehicle you intend to overtake and then discover the overtake isn't on, you simply steer back to your original side of the road, no frantic braking to tuck back in. You also get a better view of the road ahead before committing.
If it's clear and you go for it, your vehicle will be in a straight line when you accelerate and therefore more stable. Not a big issue most of the time, but if it's wet or you have a powerful car, or both, it can be. I now drive an Ariel Atom and accelerating as you pull out means a weave to the right and then to the left, which under hard acceleration can cause problems, as a friend of mine discovered in his Atom as it flicked him off the road.
And yes it's great to judge your accelerator sense to the point where you can slip back into the line of traffic without touching the brakes, but it's not always possible. In a marked police car people leave you plenty of room to do so, trust me.
PP
I'm retired now but the last twenty years of my time in the police I was an Advanced Driver and I'm still learning.
To address the overtaking issue, first never overtake where there are junctions ahead. Vehicles pulling out into what was your empty oncoming lane will really mess up your overtake.
If you pull out while maintaining the same speed as the vehicle you intend to overtake and then discover the overtake isn't on, you simply steer back to your original side of the road, no frantic braking to tuck back in. You also get a better view of the road ahead before committing.
If it's clear and you go for it, your vehicle will be in a straight line when you accelerate and therefore more stable. Not a big issue most of the time, but if it's wet or you have a powerful car, or both, it can be. I now drive an Ariel Atom and accelerating as you pull out means a weave to the right and then to the left, which under hard acceleration can cause problems, as a friend of mine discovered in his Atom as it flicked him off the road.
And yes it's great to judge your accelerator sense to the point where you can slip back into the line of traffic without touching the brakes, but it's not always possible. In a marked police car people leave you plenty of room to do so, trust me.
PP
Thanks to all those who replied. Some good insights.
p1esk said:
I never used to worry about using brakes when completing an overtake and moving into the return gap, until vonhosen came along and said we ought to avoid showing brake lights to the driver we have just passed, and I agree that is the nicest way of doing it.
Having said that, you do need a pretty large return gap to be able to do it; although using a gear that provides good acceleration for the overtake, also gives you more engine braking to get the speed down again and enter the return gap without using the brakes.
Not sure if it makes sense but it seems a much more aggressive manoeuvre having to brake to get into the gap.Having said that, you do need a pretty large return gap to be able to do it; although using a gear that provides good acceleration for the overtake, also gives you more engine braking to get the speed down again and enter the return gap without using the brakes.
PaulPqwerty said:
If it's clear and you go for it, your vehicle will be in a straight line when you accelerate and therefore more stable. Not a big issue most of the time, but if it's wet or you have a powerful car, or both, it can be. I now drive an Ariel Atom and accelerating as you pull out means a weave to the right and then to the left, which under hard acceleration can cause problems, as a friend of mine discovered in his Atom as it flicked him off the road.
A good point I hadn't considered tbh. R0G said:
long triangle overtake can often be out there early and increasing speed but still leaving the option to brake and go back in again
Short triangle overtake needs the driver to pull out first at same speed and then increasing speed
Which type of overtake is this thread referring to ?
Single carriageway type.Short triangle overtake needs the driver to pull out first at same speed and then increasing speed
Which type of overtake is this thread referring to ?
Edited by g3org3y on Tuesday 3rd September 16:51
g3org3y said:
Thanks to all those who replied. Some good insights.
Yes, maybe so, but does it not depend on what the gap is, what the relative speeds are, and how much braking effort is used? If one were to do the overtake and then brake hard to get the speed down quickly in order to squeeze into a relatively small gap, that would be very aggressive I would say.p1esk said:
I never used to worry about using brakes when completing an overtake and moving into the return gap, until vonhosen came along and said we ought to avoid showing brake lights to the driver we have just passed, and I agree that is the nicest way of doing it.
Having said that, you do need a pretty large return gap to be able to do it; although using a gear that provides good acceleration for the overtake, also gives you more engine braking to get the speed down again and enter the return gap without using the brakes.
Not sure if it makes sense but it seems a much more aggressive manoeuvre having to brake to get into the gap.Having said that, you do need a pretty large return gap to be able to do it; although using a gear that provides good acceleration for the overtake, also gives you more engine braking to get the speed down again and enter the return gap without using the brakes.
On the other hand you might need a small amount of gentle braking to get into the return gap, in which case I wouldn't regard that as aggressive at all; it's just not the ideal way of doing it.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
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