Was I right or wrong to attempt to 'block' unsafe overtake?
Discussion
Hi, I'm looking for your opinions on this one - don't worry, I'm thick-skinned.
I posted it on a GG thread - but I'm calling it again here as having thought about it more I'm genuinely interested to know if I 'should' have done things differently next time. What would an 'expert driver' have done?
I blocked an overtake not too long ago. I was in a hired van doing about 50mph on a quiet single lane road when a Caterham rushed up behind me, obviously keen to get past and keep hooning.
We rounded a bend on a road I know quite well and it opens up into a longish straight but with a rather severe dip in the road about half way along. From my higher vantage point I just saw a biker coming the other way 'disappear' into it, just as the Caterham dropped a cog and indicated to pull out and pass. It was an instinctive decision but I also indicated right and put the offside wheels of the van across the dividing line, in effect forcing the Cateraham to think again before he got level with the back of the van. There was no cars behind him so his options were open. He chose wisely and aborted the move.
He tucked back in (no doubt effing and jeffing about this prick in the van in front) and I moved back to the left but kept the right hand indicator on. About two seconds later the biker 'emerged' and flashed past us from the opposite direction at quite a speed. If the Caterham had gone for that move I am 100% confident there was no way of that working out cleanly without either of them having to take some drastically evasive actions - with potentially very negative outcomes for one of them, both of them or all three of us.
With a clear view of the empty road ahead I then indicated left and gave him as much space as I could. He pulled out for a look and passed. As he got level he waved and when he tucked in he again gave me a thumbs up before heading for the horizon. I took his gestures as gratitued for intervening in a situation he could have misjudged.
I did think at the time 'do I have the right to do this? am I some sort of knight of the road?' but then made the instinctive decision to intervene anyway. Being the driver of a low car I appreciate not only how vunerable you would be in an accident but also how crap your sightlines can be. Same with bikes - I have an understanding as to how vunerable bikers are when things even go slightly wrong. I figured that my intentions were good - in effect to stop two unknown people smashing their lumps of metal into each other at a closing speed in excess of 120mph due to what I saw as an error of someone elses' judgement - and I'd rather risk momentarily pissing someone off or even pulling over to have a converastion and jusitfy what I did, than being part of a horrific police investigation where not all of the participants got to go home that afternoon.
I'll probably get flamed for posting this, but in the same situation I'd do it again.
It's my judgement vs someone elses. Others could say:
If the Caterham continues to force the overtake I've made it worse for him - I've given him less room on the road as well as a distraction to deal with.
My judgement could be wrong and that the Caterham is best placed to judge his TED, not me.
Or that I should have let him pull out and accelerate and then hit the brakes so that I give him an 'escape' when he sees the bike.
Not sure there is a 'right' answer in the white heat of the moment, but I could get flamed if someone else sees my actions as 'wrong' - I'm no Highway Code expert but it probably says I was 'wrong' to do what I did.
Plus, as soon as other people are making judgements it's all open to interpretation - I might be out in my car, see a move that I judge to be safe and go for it, but if the guy in front uses his judgement to decide I can't make it and blocks me, all sort of confusion / danger can happen next - yet he thinks he was acting in my best interests and looking out for me / other road users.
I posted it on a GG thread - but I'm calling it again here as having thought about it more I'm genuinely interested to know if I 'should' have done things differently next time. What would an 'expert driver' have done?
I blocked an overtake not too long ago. I was in a hired van doing about 50mph on a quiet single lane road when a Caterham rushed up behind me, obviously keen to get past and keep hooning.
We rounded a bend on a road I know quite well and it opens up into a longish straight but with a rather severe dip in the road about half way along. From my higher vantage point I just saw a biker coming the other way 'disappear' into it, just as the Caterham dropped a cog and indicated to pull out and pass. It was an instinctive decision but I also indicated right and put the offside wheels of the van across the dividing line, in effect forcing the Cateraham to think again before he got level with the back of the van. There was no cars behind him so his options were open. He chose wisely and aborted the move.
He tucked back in (no doubt effing and jeffing about this prick in the van in front) and I moved back to the left but kept the right hand indicator on. About two seconds later the biker 'emerged' and flashed past us from the opposite direction at quite a speed. If the Caterham had gone for that move I am 100% confident there was no way of that working out cleanly without either of them having to take some drastically evasive actions - with potentially very negative outcomes for one of them, both of them or all three of us.
With a clear view of the empty road ahead I then indicated left and gave him as much space as I could. He pulled out for a look and passed. As he got level he waved and when he tucked in he again gave me a thumbs up before heading for the horizon. I took his gestures as gratitued for intervening in a situation he could have misjudged.
I did think at the time 'do I have the right to do this? am I some sort of knight of the road?' but then made the instinctive decision to intervene anyway. Being the driver of a low car I appreciate not only how vunerable you would be in an accident but also how crap your sightlines can be. Same with bikes - I have an understanding as to how vunerable bikers are when things even go slightly wrong. I figured that my intentions were good - in effect to stop two unknown people smashing their lumps of metal into each other at a closing speed in excess of 120mph due to what I saw as an error of someone elses' judgement - and I'd rather risk momentarily pissing someone off or even pulling over to have a converastion and jusitfy what I did, than being part of a horrific police investigation where not all of the participants got to go home that afternoon.
I'll probably get flamed for posting this, but in the same situation I'd do it again.
Matt UK said:
Art0ir said:
I can't see why anyone would flame you for that, to job IMO.
It's the fact that I intervened, I 'blocked' an intended overtake (or at least prompted a rethink). It's my judgement vs someone elses. Others could say:
If the Caterham continues to force the overtake I've made it worse for him - I've given him less room on the road as well as a distraction to deal with.
My judgement could be wrong and that the Caterham is best placed to judge his TED, not me.
Or that I should have let him pull out and accelerate and then hit the brakes so that I give him an 'escape' when he sees the bike.
Not sure there is a 'right' answer in the white heat of the moment, but I could get flamed if someone else sees my actions as 'wrong' - I'm no Highway Code expert but it probably says I was 'wrong' to do what I did.
Plus, as soon as other people are making judgements it's all open to interpretation - I might be out in my car, see a move that I judge to be safe and go for it, but if the guy in front uses his judgement to decide I can't make it and blocks me, all sort of confusion / danger can happen next - yet he thinks he was acting in my best interests and looking out for me / other road users.
I'd cautiously say that you did the right thing. The Caterham driver seems to have thought so too, although their reaction isn't very important.
A good Caterham driver would drop a cog, move out for a look whilst still behind, but not commit to passing until they established that sightline and their thoughts on its safety. That's what advanced driving teaches you. This driver might see the bike.
A lesser Caterham driver would drop a cog, start accelerating as a runup, and without really assessing the merits, very quickly commit. This driver would be surprised by the bike.
You couldn't know which one they were, and reacted instinctively, which I think's fair.
Ultimately you had three choices: block, brake or maintain speed. It's a bit Hobson's choice.
Blocking risks them not reacting in time and hitting you as you've highlighted, or even trying to get past anyway.
Braking requires that they complete the pass: else they do the same and have nowhere to go.
Maintaining speed is notionally safest but leaves the unwitting biker in the least control.
My only advice for overtakes of impending doom is that you make your decision based on where the car is in relation to you - i.e. if it's drawn level, brake.
A good Caterham driver would drop a cog, move out for a look whilst still behind, but not commit to passing until they established that sightline and their thoughts on its safety. That's what advanced driving teaches you. This driver might see the bike.
A lesser Caterham driver would drop a cog, start accelerating as a runup, and without really assessing the merits, very quickly commit. This driver would be surprised by the bike.
You couldn't know which one they were, and reacted instinctively, which I think's fair.
Ultimately you had three choices: block, brake or maintain speed. It's a bit Hobson's choice.
Blocking risks them not reacting in time and hitting you as you've highlighted, or even trying to get past anyway.
Braking requires that they complete the pass: else they do the same and have nowhere to go.
Maintaining speed is notionally safest but leaves the unwitting biker in the least control.
My only advice for overtakes of impending doom is that you make your decision based on where the car is in relation to you - i.e. if it's drawn level, brake.
FWIW, the Highway Code is clear that you shouldn't impede a driver looking to overtake and the option to brake and give him more space is one which probably increases the safety of all concerned.
In the event you successfully dissuaded him from passing. Super. Good result. That was one possible outcome (a good one) -- although these decisions are probably better looked-at as how bad and how liekly is the worst situation.
Had he committed regardless, he would have found himself in a narrower gap and possibly not clearing as quickly as a result. He would have been distracted by the threat of the van and had his view restricted. and then the bike would have appeared. In the event that you all went three-abreast, your offside position would have left the other two with no room to do anything but squish.
Your actions then make you part of the accident, rather than part of the furniture. Survivors will testify how you made the overtake harder and all of a sudden you're looking at a S1 or S2 charge.
I generally think it's a fools errand to improve someones driving from anywhere other than in their passenger seat, and you prime objective is your own safety.
A hard decision to take in little or no time at all, but the option that I would soberly and at distance prefer to take would be to ease off and keep left.
In the event you successfully dissuaded him from passing. Super. Good result. That was one possible outcome (a good one) -- although these decisions are probably better looked-at as how bad and how liekly is the worst situation.
Had he committed regardless, he would have found himself in a narrower gap and possibly not clearing as quickly as a result. He would have been distracted by the threat of the van and had his view restricted. and then the bike would have appeared. In the event that you all went three-abreast, your offside position would have left the other two with no room to do anything but squish.
Your actions then make you part of the accident, rather than part of the furniture. Survivors will testify how you made the overtake harder and all of a sudden you're looking at a S1 or S2 charge.
I generally think it's a fools errand to improve someones driving from anywhere other than in their passenger seat, and you prime objective is your own safety.
A hard decision to take in little or no time at all, but the option that I would soberly and at distance prefer to take would be to ease off and keep left.
7db said:
FWIW, the Highway Code is clear that you shouldn't impede a driver looking to overtake and the option to brake and give him more space is one which probably increases the safety of all concerned.
In the event you successfully dissuaded him from passing. Super. Good result. That was one possible outcome (a good one) -- although these decisions are probably better looked-at as how bad and how liekly is the worst situation.
Had he committed regardless, he would have found himself in a narrower gap and possibly not clearing as quickly as a result. He would have been distracted by the threat of the van and had his view restricted. and then the bike would have appeared. In the event that you all went three-abreast, your offside position would have left the other two with no room to do anything but squish.
Your actions then make you part of the accident, rather than part of the furniture. Survivors will testify how you made the overtake harder and all of a sudden you're looking at a S1 or S2 charge.
I generally think it's a fools errand to improve someones driving from anywhere other than in their passenger seat, and you prime objective is your own safety.
A hard decision to take in little or no time at all, but the option that I would soberly and at distance prefer to take would be to ease off and keep left.
Food for thought - thanks and much appreciated.In the event you successfully dissuaded him from passing. Super. Good result. That was one possible outcome (a good one) -- although these decisions are probably better looked-at as how bad and how liekly is the worst situation.
Had he committed regardless, he would have found himself in a narrower gap and possibly not clearing as quickly as a result. He would have been distracted by the threat of the van and had his view restricted. and then the bike would have appeared. In the event that you all went three-abreast, your offside position would have left the other two with no room to do anything but squish.
Your actions then make you part of the accident, rather than part of the furniture. Survivors will testify how you made the overtake harder and all of a sudden you're looking at a S1 or S2 charge.
I generally think it's a fools errand to improve someones driving from anywhere other than in their passenger seat, and you prime objective is your own safety.
A hard decision to take in little or no time at all, but the option that I would soberly and at distance prefer to take would be to ease off and keep left.
I also asked a similar question a year or so ago that got some good answers: http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
some very good replies there, I think you were in a bad situation, it just turns out that the end result was that everyone lived to tell the tale, and maybe the biker is none the wiser.
Could you have moved left, eased off when the car along side then braked to allow him in?
What was behind the caterham? and how far back behind him was it where that vehicle could have run into you?
Would the biker have had the chance to move left maintaining control?, and avoided the oncoming car?
When I teach overtaking, the 3 main points taught are... Is it necessary? is it safe? is it legal? if it ain't all three, then you restart the whole process before attempting the overtake. Where you started to indicate right, and then moved to the centre line/over it, the overtake became unsafe, as you were suggesting you were going to turn right, so the caterham, dropped back and waited until you suggested it was safer to overtake. Yes he may be miffed but it worked in this case, another time it may not. This time you feel you did a great job as the other driver may have fully understood what you did for all 3 vehicles. If you had been in a small car he may not have "given way" as you would not have been dominating the road the way a van does.
I drive an MX5 and it's far lower than the Corsa I teach in, and my wifes Volvo V70, The Caterham is far lower than any of those, the power it has spanks many other vehicles and in the hands of someone prepared to compromise safety for the overtake with far less of a view than you have from your van, and reduces the safety part of an overtake, one day will come to grief. For me you made a good call that time, but may not be on another. Every incident is different in different ways
Could you have moved left, eased off when the car along side then braked to allow him in?
What was behind the caterham? and how far back behind him was it where that vehicle could have run into you?
Would the biker have had the chance to move left maintaining control?, and avoided the oncoming car?
When I teach overtaking, the 3 main points taught are... Is it necessary? is it safe? is it legal? if it ain't all three, then you restart the whole process before attempting the overtake. Where you started to indicate right, and then moved to the centre line/over it, the overtake became unsafe, as you were suggesting you were going to turn right, so the caterham, dropped back and waited until you suggested it was safer to overtake. Yes he may be miffed but it worked in this case, another time it may not. This time you feel you did a great job as the other driver may have fully understood what you did for all 3 vehicles. If you had been in a small car he may not have "given way" as you would not have been dominating the road the way a van does.
I drive an MX5 and it's far lower than the Corsa I teach in, and my wifes Volvo V70, The Caterham is far lower than any of those, the power it has spanks many other vehicles and in the hands of someone prepared to compromise safety for the overtake with far less of a view than you have from your van, and reduces the safety part of an overtake, one day will come to grief. For me you made a good call that time, but may not be on another. Every incident is different in different ways
That's an interesting / difficult one.
If the Caterham driver thanked you afterwards then everyone was happy. Better to have made a positive decision to try to keep people safe than to have watched an accident happen, IMO. Whether getting left/backing off and making room was a better choice can only be determined at the time, you obviously judged not. As long as you're aware of all options then it sounds as if you did the best that you could do, and it worked, so good call.
If the Caterham driver thanked you afterwards then everyone was happy. Better to have made a positive decision to try to keep people safe than to have watched an accident happen, IMO. Whether getting left/backing off and making room was a better choice can only be determined at the time, you obviously judged not. As long as you're aware of all options then it sounds as if you did the best that you could do, and it worked, so good call.
Although it worked out ok, I must admit I would try not to get into the "blocking someone else" business. Just look out for yourself and avoid the predicted carnage.
You ran the risk of inducing some road rage against yourself.
I have occasionally become a "blocker", but only when the carnage victim was going to be me.
It's a hard one, because it's one person's judgement of a situation against another's, and mine could be wrong.
You ran the risk of inducing some road rage against yourself.
I have occasionally become a "blocker", but only when the carnage victim was going to be me.
It's a hard one, because it's one person's judgement of a situation against another's, and mine could be wrong.
Despite the happy outcome, I think the OP was wrong. What if the Caterham driver had attempted a crazy overtaking move and, forced to abort it, wiped out some other innocents? I don't think that a successful outcome always justifies an action, not least because a large part of the outcome is still down to factors outside of your control.
There is/was an old fashioned alternative - perhaps a hand signal signifying slowing, coupled with use of the hazards. I'm sure there are more. It's rarely a case of just two options, in this case, block or do nothing.
There is/was an old fashioned alternative - perhaps a hand signal signifying slowing, coupled with use of the hazards. I'm sure there are more. It's rarely a case of just two options, in this case, block or do nothing.
I'm generally very much against blocking overtakes for all the reasons previously stated - one day you may cause an accident instead of preventing one. However, in this instance, it worked out OK. I'm not sure what other signal you could have given to help the Caterham driver understand he was in danger, especially in a van. As 7db says, possibly your only other sensible option was to back off to reduce the time the Caterham would be exposed to danger. It's a toughie.
Such a tricky one this. Most people who block overtaking manoeuvres think incorrectly that the other driver is driving unsafely, because they view the whole world through their eyes: assuming everyone on the road is a slow reacting numpty driving a wobbly front wheel drive hatchback with three bald tyres and one headlight working; if you know what you're doing and drive a well maintained capable car, you suffer from this.
However, in this situation the OP is not that sort of average driver, he's a diligent car enthusiast worried about someone else's safety. I think the dividing line is that the OP acted not through his own opinion, but through an obvious observation of an accident that could have happened. I sometimes get in a situation to do what he did when I'm out cycling - I don't wave people past if I can see round a bend first because that's not safe - they usually take so long to react, the way's not usually clear by the time they and their car wake up and pass me, however one thing I will do is put my hand up to hold them back if on the rare occasion there is something unusual and dangerous happening up ahead that they can't see yet, like a tractor cutting the verge etc. So yes, I think the OP did the right thing, in those very specific and rare circumstances. I wouldn't condone it if someone's voicing an opinion though; only a genuine observation.
However, in this situation the OP is not that sort of average driver, he's a diligent car enthusiast worried about someone else's safety. I think the dividing line is that the OP acted not through his own opinion, but through an obvious observation of an accident that could have happened. I sometimes get in a situation to do what he did when I'm out cycling - I don't wave people past if I can see round a bend first because that's not safe - they usually take so long to react, the way's not usually clear by the time they and their car wake up and pass me, however one thing I will do is put my hand up to hold them back if on the rare occasion there is something unusual and dangerous happening up ahead that they can't see yet, like a tractor cutting the verge etc. So yes, I think the OP did the right thing, in those very specific and rare circumstances. I wouldn't condone it if someone's voicing an opinion though; only a genuine observation.
Edited by RobM77 on Sunday 4th August 14:58
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