Whos right, whos wrong?

[Atterz]

Hello all.

After a bit of a discussion with my father im looking for another opinion on a roundabout and correct etiquette for using said roundabout near me in my local town.

Below is a Google maps image and also a drawing i have done in order to demonstrate what i mean :-





I am approaching the roundabout from the A6007, as shown in the diagrams. I am wanting to exit at exit 2 (Derby road). The road leading up to the roundabout splits into 2 and the roundabout has enough room for cars to traverse it side by side. However, as shown on the Google Maps picture there is no road markings. Today i entered the roundabout from the left hand lane, and did not begin to indicate until the point shown on my diagram. Should i have indicated before then? Should i be in the right hand lane?
It resulted in somebody pulling out from junction 1 and inevitably panicking and stopping in the middle of the road in front of me. That's largely irrelevant now but i'm just wondering for my future reference how i should navigate the roundabout. And whether my Dads method of using the right hand lane to enter (indicating right until the same point as i).

Thank you,
James.

[Dr Jekyll]

The second exit is slightly past the 12 o clock position, so there is certainly a cse for treating it as a right turn. I reckon you just have to go by local convention.

[r44flyer]

You'll probably have to rely on local convention, as above. Past 12 o'clock or not, it's still the second exit, so lane one should be used. It's obviously not, though.

Zooming out a little it's obvious the roundabout was constructed to serve the Tesco store. Anyone continuing into town (exit 1, A608), as per the original road layout, would take lane 1, anyone using any 'new' exit would use lane 2.

[AnotherGareth]

Google Maps link - OP presented the maps upside-down, in the conventional sense.

[Wollemi]

I think that what you did was entirely correct, by the book.
The error was the other driver's in pulling out in front of you. They made an assumption that was not justified by either your road positioning or your signalling; it's their poor driving.
If you were in the right lane like your Dad, there is a risk of someone assuming you are going to exit three and pulling out from 1 to turn left into 2 or even going to 3.

[Toltec]

I think you are correct, you also managed to avoid making this a 'whose fault was this?' thread so again you are probably handling the roundabout safely.

I would possibly use the right hand entrance lane if I saw a car or cars indicating left in the left lane.

[Martin A]

Past twelve o'clock means it's off to the right so right hand lane should be used if one is following the advice of the current Highway Code.

186

Signals and position. When taking the first exit, unless signs or markings indicate otherwise

signal left and approach in the left-hand lane
keep to the left on the roundabout and continue signalling left to leave.

When taking an exit to the right or going full circle, unless signs or markings indicate otherwise

signal right and approach in the right-hand lane
keep to the right on the roundabout until you need to change lanes to exit the roundabout
signal left after you have passed the exit before the one you want.


The Highway Code does change so some road users who are not up to date may be following outdated advice.

[MC Bodge]

Atterz said:

i'm just wondering for my future reference how i should navigate the roundabout

[M4cruiser]

Martin A said:

Past twelve o'clock means it's off to the right so right hand lane should be used if one is following the advice of the current Highway Code.

186

Signals and position. When taking the first exit, unless signs or markings indicate otherwise

signal left and approach in the left-hand lane
keep to the left on the roundabout and continue signalling left to leave.

When taking an exit to the right or going full circle, unless signs or markings indicate otherwise

signal right and approach in the right-hand lane
keep to the right on the roundabout until you need to change lanes to exit the roundabout
signal left after you have passed the exit before the one you want.


The Highway Code does change so some road users who are not up to date may be following outdated advice.

Martin, you missed out the most important bit, the HC says what to do at an intermediate exit, which is what this is.
When taking any intermediate exit, unless signs or markings indicate otherwise
select the appropriate lane on approach to and on the roundabout
you should not normally need to signal on approach
stay in this lane until you need to alter course to exit the roundabout
signal left after you have passed the exit before the one you want.

[Wollemi]

M4cruiser said:

Martin A said:

Past twelve o'clock means it's off to the right so right hand lane should be used if one is following the advice of the current Highway Code.

186

Signals and position. When taking the first exit, unless signs or markings indicate otherwise

signal left and approach in the left-hand lane
keep to the left on the roundabout and continue signalling left to leave.

When taking an exit to the right or going full circle, unless signs or markings indicate otherwise

signal right and approach in the right-hand lane
keep to the right on the roundabout until you need to change lanes to exit the roundabout
signal left after you have passed the exit before the one you want.


The Highway Code does change so some road users who are not up to date may be following outdated advice.

Martin, you missed out the most important bit, the HC says what to do at an intermediate exit, which is what this is.
When taking any intermediate exit, unless signs or markings indicate otherwise
select the appropriate lane on approach to and on the roundabout
you should not normally need to signal on approach
stay in this lane until you need to alter course to exit the roundabout
signal left after you have passed the exit before the one you want.

I've just checked the most recent Highway code and there's nothing about a junction being "Past twelve o'clock". And anyway, from the google satellite view the second exit is pretty well on the twelve o'clock straight on.
The highway code is a liitle vague, as M4cruiser quotes, "select the appropriate lane" without telling you which that is. It's my belief that you can go straight on in either left or right lane but the right lane carries a greater risk of someone pulling out from the left as they assume you are going on to take the third exit.
The trouble is, you indicate as you pass the exit before the one you want (as per HC); this means the signal will have not been on for long. John Lyon says in his book that a signal needs to be given for four second for it to be properly seen, in 4 seconds you've already made the turn.
Fact of life. people do pull out inappropriately at roundabouts and we need to be prepared for this happening.

[Z.B]

It's not a question of right and wrong, it's a question of what works best in this case.

Consider overall traffic flow, and the likely outcomes of each option.

It might help to see the plan board for this roundabout. Does it appear to suggest treating this as a right turn, or a straight on? Convention (and it is only convention) dictates that past 12 O' clock means approach in the right hand lane.

I'm leaning towards right hand lane for this one for several reasons:
1. It avoids the particular misunderstanding you experienced.
2. It avoids people cutting across you unsafely from lane 2, thinking that you have already exited.
3. It appears that there are 2 major road exits, and 2 car park exits. It would seem sensible to use lane 2 for the second major exit rather than using lane 1 for both.

The only downside to this is potential for people to pass you on the left on route to the same exit. But if your mirror use is up to scratch you should be able to deal with this comfortably. Overall I think you would have more control over the situation in lane 2.

[R0G]

I would have put on a right signal whether using lane 1 or 2 so that others were not tempted to pull out

[Countdown]

Ummm....aren't there FIVE exits from the roundabout???

In which case, I would use the LHS lane for exit 1 (at 7 o'colck) and exit 2 (at 10 o'clock) and the RHS lane for exits 3 and 4.

[R0G]

Exit is wide enough to accommodate two cars with room to spare so either lane is ok for the 1 o clock exit

To be safe I would not go around or exit with another directly at the side of me just in case

[davepoth]

Difficult one. It's past 12 o'clock, but only just. It's probably difficult to judge on the ground. Either way, the person coming on to the roundabout has to give way. If they aren't sure, they shouldn't move.

[Martin A]

Wollemi said:

M4cruiser said:

Martin A said:

Past twelve o'clock means it's off to the right so right hand lane should be used if one is following the advice of the current Highway Code.

186

Signals and position. When taking the first exit, unless signs or markings indicate otherwise

signal left and approach in the left-hand lane
keep to the left on the roundabout and continue signalling left to leave.

When taking an exit to the right or going full circle, unless signs or markings indicate otherwise

signal right and approach in the right-hand lane
keep to the right on the roundabout until you need to change lanes to exit the roundabout
signal left after you have passed the exit before the one you want.


The Highway Code does change so some road users who are not up to date may be following outdated advice.

Martin, you missed out the most important bit, the HC says what to do at an intermediate exit, which is what this is.
When taking any intermediate exit, unless signs or markings indicate otherwise
select the appropriate lane on approach to and on the roundabout
you should not normally need to signal on approach
stay in this lane until you need to alter course to exit the roundabout
signal left after you have passed the exit before the one you want.

I've just checked the most recent Highway code and there's nothing about a junction being "Past twelve o'clock". And anyway, from the google satellite view the second exit is pretty well on the twelve o'clock straight on.
The highway code is a liitle vague, as M4cruiser quotes, "select the appropriate lane" without telling you which that is. It's my belief that you can go straight on in either left or right lane but the right lane carries a greater risk of someone pulling out from the left as they assume you are going on to take the third exit.
The trouble is, you indicate as you pass the exit before the one you want (as per HC); this means the signal will have not been on for long. John Lyon says in his book that a signal needs to be given for four second for it to be properly seen, in 4 seconds you've already made the turn.
Fact of life. people do pull out inappropriately at roundabouts and we need to be prepared for this happening.

An intermediate exit is by logical deduction is an exit between the first and any exit off to the right. There was no need to quote what to do at an intermediate exit as the exit indicated is off to the right, or at least it is is when one refers to the original diagram and also appears to be on the photo.

The Highway Code used to say the last exit rather than an exit off to the right, in which case the chosen exit would be an intermediate one, but, as I said the Highway Code is often revised and this is the current advice

[7mike]

Let's face it, with 4 days of not agreeing here what are the chances of negotiating this (or any other) roundabout whilst being alongside another road user who has read the most up to date version of the HWC. Pick a lane, keep an eye on both external mirrors & be prepared to boot it/back off as appropriate

[jimmy the hat]

7mike said:

Let's face it, with 4 days of not agreeing here what are the chances of negotiating this (or any other) roundabout whilst being alongside another road user who has read the most up to date version of the HWC. Pick a lane, keep an eye on both external mirrors & be prepared to boot it/back off as appropriate

Indeed. I would go with local-convention and prevailing traffic-flow. For example, I know of a roundabout with two lanes in and four exits where I firmly believe it's perfectly acceptable to use the left lane to turn right.

In this instance, if the vast majority of users were going into the supermarket, I'd use the left lane for everything else. If they took the first exit, I'd use the right. To be perfectly honest, if someone was dawdling in front of me I'd use whichever lane they didn't. But then I'm not one to slavishly attempt to apply some vague rules to an infinitely variable set of circumstances.

Also, 7mike's absolutely spot-on. Just be aware. Assuming the Highway Code laid out lanes for every single roundabout and you followed it to the letter, someone would still do something daft every once in a while.

Cheers, Jim

[Sifly]

Exit 2 looks pretty much straight on to me, and probably appears as good as from ground level. So left hand lane, and indicate left after passing exit 1. If you wanted to go to Tesco, enter in the right hand lane No??!

I think your sketch is Bang On.

Or am I missing something?

Roundabouts come in many different forms, with any number of Major and minor roads, car-parks etc joining into them. I personally would probably disregard the minor turn off to the left (looks like a small car park entrance) and class the N/W direction main road turn as the first exit as you have sketched but thats probably technically incorrect!?

Edited by Sifly on Wednesday 3rd July 19:10

[Atterz]

Sorry for the late reply i've been away Sailing for the week. From what i can see the conclusion that we have come to is that we are all pretty unsure. Local convention also varies, some people use the left lane and some people use the right lane, i think i will continue to use the left lane as that is what i honestly believed as being the correct way to navigate "A" roundabout and also this roundabout as it reduces the chances of cutting in front of somebody that would be entering from entrance 1.

Amazing how such a small issue as such can lead to such a debate, i really wasnt interested in being "correct" as such, just wanted to be safe.