HGV Drivers. Dodgy overtaking. What do you think?

[CKD]

Morning all.
Long time lurker - first time poster.

So I've not had a great need to post here before, usually somebody sums up what I would have said anyway. But I'd like so hear your views of this video.

I assumed HGV driving is considered 'Advanced' - apologies if I posted this in the wrong section though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqpswBKmkY0

Synopsis: The HGV tailgates a little old lady through a residential area - constantly applying the brakes. Probably about 5ft away from her most of the time. Then proceeds to overtake.

Also note that the hatchings at the point of overtake mean it is still one lane for another 100m or so. There is a speed camera the other side of the road.

What is the general consensus with this? And had you have been the one following the HGV, what (if anything) would you have done?

TIA

[norush]

Looks pretty normal for a tipper driver to be honest; the old biddy was dawdling. Bit of a storm in a teacup.

Edited by norush on Tuesday 7th May 12:33

Edited by norush on Tuesday 7th May 12:34

[ScoobyChris]

CKD said:

Also note that the hatchings at the point of overtake mean it is still one lane for another 100m or so. There is a speed camera the other side of the road.

The hatchings are a ghost island/lane boarded by a broken white line, so they can be entered if it's safe (and necessary?) to do so. The HGV seemed to hold position before committing (although we don't know his reasons behind this) and the overtake itself seemed fairly safe. What were the speeds involved - I was surprised how quickly the HGV overtook and left the red car behind?

Chris

[MagicalTrevor]

Disregarding the speed limit for that vehicle is 40mph along that road, it's difficult to judge what speed the red car was doing but I'm assuming 30 in a 40?

If I was driving the lorry I think I'd have backed off and not been so impatient, however I don't really see anything wrong with the overtake other than the affect/reaction that you'd get from the other driver (overeaction due to being scared of the lorry?) and that he likely knew that there was a dual-carriageway coming up.

[CKD]

Valid points, however what about the fact that it's actually a 'turn right lane' for oncoming traffic? I appreciate that it is broken whites.. But hatchings are hatchings, no?

Put it this way - If I did that manoeuvre whilst on an HGV test (or even a normal car test for that matter) - everything else was legal, going under 40mph throughout the overtake, would I really expect to pass the test?

I just think it's kinda stupid given that a safe overtake on the dual carriageway was no more than 200m ahead.


In answer to your question, the speed was a pretty consistent 30-35 mph, through a 40 (a moot point but this whole road is scattered in flowers tied to posts...)

[MagicalTrevor]

CKD said:

Valid points, however what about the fact that it's actually a 'turn right lane' for oncoming traffic? I appreciate that it is broken whites.. But hatchings are hatchings, no?

I didn't see that, whilst it might not be a good idea to use that area, it's still not illegal to so so. I'm afraid 'hatchings AREN'T hatchings' it depends on the lines surrounding the area. Broken lines mean you can enter that area if necessary.

If I was behind a tractor then I'd use the hatched area if it was clear

[R0G]

Not dangerous but daft because of the dual a few seconds later

[jagracer]

CKD said:

Also note that the hatchings at the point of overtake mean it is still one lane for another 100m or so. There is a speed camera the other side of the road.

What is the general consensus with this? And had you have been the one following the HGV, what (if anything) would you have done?

TIA

TBH Your overtake of the red car left a fair bit to be desired and what's the speed camera got to do with anything, you were matching or faster than the truck. I think It's more a case of pot, kettle and black. If it had been me in the truck I'd have hung back a bit further to save the constant braking and to give me a better run at overtaking.

[ScoobyChris]

CKD said:

Put it this way - If I did that manoeuvre whilst on an HGV test (or even a normal car test for that matter) - everything else was legal, going under 40mph throughout the overtake, would I really expect to pass the test?

To flip the question on its head, what would you expect to fail for?

CKD said:

I just think it's kinda stupid given that a safe overtake on the dual carriageway was no more than 200m ahead.

I wouldn't say it was stupid or dangerous but I'd agree that the gain he made is easily offset by the perception of his driving by those around which could easily be counter productive. On single carriageway roads, I'd definitely consider using well swept/clean hatched areas (with broken white lines) for overtaking.

Chris

[CKD]

With respect, I would refute the comment about black pots for now, as my overtake was well within the boundaries of hatchings and so forth. However, say whatever you wish about how I was driving faster than the lorry when on the DC.

I would say the speed camera does have some significance, in that they don't (exceptions granted) just stick them up for no reason, and that they are usually in incident-ridden areas that warrant the speed reduction.

I think really the point I'm bringing up is more the driver's general mannerisms. The way I see it, he was a bit too aggressive throughout the whole clip. Again, I consider HGV driving to take more skill than a car, and as such, is more "advanced".

Forgive me for not being versed in the HC for HGVs, but would I be wrong in assuming that the "two second rule" is a little too short for such a high mass, and that they should abide by some other length of time? Yes I appreciate that they might have bigger or better brakes, but no way can they stop ~ 20 tonnes in the distance I can stop a 1 tonne car.

ScoobyChris said:

To flip the question on its head, what would you expect to fail for?

Probably the above. "Following too close to the car in front" I'm sure was something that you could get failed for back when I did my test.

To condense my thoughts: What is safe for a car to do isn't necessarily safe for an HGV - Yes? No?

For those that thought tl;dr I guess the logic can be summed up quite well.

• It's a perfectly legal overtake
• We probably would have all done the same thing in our cars
• He was a bit of a daft nugget for not waiting for DC
• Tailgating the old Doris like that was completely unnecessary, a bit dangerous, and very inefficient.

[jagracer]

Sorry CK, I just noticed which forum this is in so you must be correct, I will now skulk back to commercial.

[CKD]

jagracer said:

Sorry CK, I just noticed which forum this is in so you must be correct, I will now skulk back to commercial.

Say what?

[ScoobyChris]

CKD said:

Probably the above. "Following too close to the car in front" I'm sure was something that you could get failed for back when I did my test.

Ah we may be talking at cross purposes. I thought we were just discussing the overtake at the end, but I completely agree that his driving prior to that was less than ideal. I have no idea about the HGV stopping distances - one for Rog Google turned up this, although no idea on the accuracy -> http://www.ukspeedtraps.co.uk/stopping.htm

Chris

[CKD]

jagracer said:

Sorry CK, I just noticed which forum this is in so you must be correct, I will now skulk back to commercial.

I do hope that comment wasn't written with sarcasm. If it is, I must stop you there and apologise.

Please do not think I have popped on here, said a few things, asked for people's opinions, and told you they are all wrong. Not at all. I am just intrigued into how different people from different driving backgrounds view the scenario. I'm not condemning the driver to a 3 month ban, nor am I saying that all was fine and dandy. But that's the reason for the post. At what point it is on the sliding scale is subjective; an opinion.

I agree with what you're saying ScoobyChris - would your (aimed at everyone) opinion of the overtake be any different if the clip was only of the last 10 seconds? Personally, mine would be.

The overtake, in and of itself, you could say, well, yeah. A bit daft, but it's alright.

Now, combine it with 2 minutes of it tailgating a car and aggressively cutting in on a roundabout, well, that's when the rapport of the driver tends to build up.

[Group N]

Wow.

[BertBert]

CKD said:

With respect, I would refute the comment about black pots for now, as my overtake was well within the boundaries of hatchings and so forth.

I disagree. It looks to me like you are alongside another car where there is one lane and you have a turn right lane (from the opposite direction) to your right.

[davepoth]

Bit of a prat really - he plainly knew the road, and wasn't loaded, which is why he went off like a scalded cat as soon as he could. Empty, the braking distance isn't far off a car but it still doesn't excuse tailgating. It's difficult to tell speeds in a video; I think a Hyundai i10 always looks like it's travelling roughly 10mph slower than it is due to some sort of perception factor.

[Benbay001]

davepoth said:

It's difficult to tell speeds in a video

Its also hard to tell the distance the lorry is from the car infront.

The lorry would have set off the speed camera if he had been travelling in excess of the speed limit.

[CKD]

BertBert said:

CKD said:

With respect, I would refute the comment about black pots for now, as my overtake was well within the boundaries of hatchings and so forth.

I disagree. It looks to me like you are alongside another car where there is one lane and you have a turn right lane (from the opposite direction) to your right.

Hmm. Are my tyres crossing any lines of any sort? That is no more than 25 metres from where the official lanes "start" - The i10 has already moved well over to the left, leaving plenty of room for me to take the implied position of the start of lane 2.

Irrelevant anyway. The focus is on the HGV.

[CKD]

davepoth said:

I think a Hyundai i10 always looks like it's travelling roughly 10mph slower than it is due to some sort of perception factor.

To be fair, you're about right. I don't recall the exact speed at the point of overtake, but along the whole road it was fluctuating between 30 and 35 (on my speedo that is, probably 4mph or so lower actual (if lorry driver was using gps / had a calibrated speedo?))

Benbay001 said:

The lorry would have set off the speed camera if he had been travelling in excess of the speed limit.

That's the thing. So at the point of passing the camera (which was only very shortly after pulling alongside) it MUST have been doing less than (44?) which is quite understandable. I have seen the camera flash recently so I know it's in action.