MIRA Driver courses
Discussion
Hi All,
Currently a development engineer in the marine world and looking to move over to automotive. General skills on CV etc. all seem to be in order I just need a little edge to get my foot in the door.
Had a scout around and the MIRA driver courses seem to be ideal, will give me proving ground experience and seems the courses are run by development engineers so would appear to be exactly what I'm after.
Anyone had any experience of these courses or could suggest something similar?
Cheers,
Currently a development engineer in the marine world and looking to move over to automotive. General skills on CV etc. all seem to be in order I just need a little edge to get my foot in the door.
Had a scout around and the MIRA driver courses seem to be ideal, will give me proving ground experience and seems the courses are run by development engineers so would appear to be exactly what I'm after.
Anyone had any experience of these courses or could suggest something similar?
Cheers,
Hi,
You could ask Dave Turner at Cadence Driver Development, because he's an engineer and the Cadence instructors will almost certainly have done this course or an equivalent:
www.cadence.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&...
Well worth talking to Candence anyway, because they are extremely highly regarded and could be a useful source of advice.
You could ask Dave Turner at Cadence Driver Development, because he's an engineer and the Cadence instructors will almost certainly have done this course or an equivalent:
www.cadence.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&...
Well worth talking to Candence anyway, because they are extremely highly regarded and could be a useful source of advice.
I'm not aware of any industry standard qualifications - most manufacturers tend to have their own series of gradings and qualifications and if you're working for them then you have to tick their boxes (Elfin Safety dontchaknow). In other words they'd normally put you through the training on their terms to make sure that they're covered when you spank up their multi-million pound prototype.
Most development driving tasks tend to fall into three camps:
1) Mileage accumulation - they employ wheel monkeys for this as it's basically plodding around roads and proving grounds at fixed speeds and patterns for 8 hours at a time. The money is poor and the thrill truly non-existent unless sitting next to a sand filled plastic dummy doing brake tests and bumping up and down kerbs is your idea of a good time.
2) Calibration driving - tuning engine maps and the like. These days a lot of the calibration on interesting stuff like ABS/ESP/TCS is done with robot drivers for repeatability so potentially not a lot of joy there.
3) Handling development - the roost of former racing drivers and people with a lot of talent and a lot of experience. Maybe 1 in a 1000 engineers gets to do that sort of stuff.
The vast majority of the driver training we've done for the automotive industry is Roadcraft based rather than mad vehicle handling skills - i.e. making sure that the drivers don't crash into other road users and inanimate objects while at the helm of prototypes. For that sort of thing you don't need MIRA ...
(And FWIW, from a driver trainer point of view, MIRA's facilities, with perhaps the exception of their wet grip facility are neither as safe nor as educational as Millbrook's)
Most development driving tasks tend to fall into three camps:
1) Mileage accumulation - they employ wheel monkeys for this as it's basically plodding around roads and proving grounds at fixed speeds and patterns for 8 hours at a time. The money is poor and the thrill truly non-existent unless sitting next to a sand filled plastic dummy doing brake tests and bumping up and down kerbs is your idea of a good time.
2) Calibration driving - tuning engine maps and the like. These days a lot of the calibration on interesting stuff like ABS/ESP/TCS is done with robot drivers for repeatability so potentially not a lot of joy there.
3) Handling development - the roost of former racing drivers and people with a lot of talent and a lot of experience. Maybe 1 in a 1000 engineers gets to do that sort of stuff.
The vast majority of the driver training we've done for the automotive industry is Roadcraft based rather than mad vehicle handling skills - i.e. making sure that the drivers don't crash into other road users and inanimate objects while at the helm of prototypes. For that sort of thing you don't need MIRA ...
(And FWIW, from a driver trainer point of view, MIRA's facilities, with perhaps the exception of their wet grip facility are neither as safe nor as educational as Millbrook's)
Thanks for that, I've got a contact in a role I'd like to see myself in so I know sort of what would be expected. I'm not after becoming a development driver as you rightly say dynamics stuff is mostly for the naturally talented.
My issue is, after a few people have reviewed my CV, my lack of direct automotive experience, even though the paper work side of things is virtually identical I'm finding it hard to get my foot in the door. In particular I have a lack of experience of a test track facility.
To be honest this may be the wrong tack, I'm just looking at increasing my experience and a course at MIRA (particularly how they describe it, http://www.mira.co.uk/our-services/proving-ground-... ) really appeals for my purposes.
You sound like you're in the industry, any tips you would like to pass on would be greatfuly received!
Cheers
My issue is, after a few people have reviewed my CV, my lack of direct automotive experience, even though the paper work side of things is virtually identical I'm finding it hard to get my foot in the door. In particular I have a lack of experience of a test track facility.
To be honest this may be the wrong tack, I'm just looking at increasing my experience and a course at MIRA (particularly how they describe it, http://www.mira.co.uk/our-services/proving-ground-... ) really appeals for my purposes.
You sound like you're in the industry, any tips you would like to pass on would be greatfuly received!
Cheers
StressedDave said:
2) Calibration driving - tuning engine maps and the like. These days a lot of the calibration on interesting stuff like ABS/ESP/TCS is done with robot drivers for repeatability so potentially not a lot of joy there.
3) Handling development - the roost of former racing drivers and people with a lot of talent and a lot of experience. Maybe 1 in a 1000 engineers gets to do that sort of stuff.
I do calibration for ABS/ESP/TCS, and it's actually still, very, very hands on and (although likely talking from a very biased perspective 3) Handling development - the roost of former racing drivers and people with a lot of talent and a lot of experience. Maybe 1 in a 1000 engineers gets to do that sort of stuff.
) a lot more fun generally than the dynamics side of thing in a largeish OEM these days. Whilst there is a shift to do more standard maneuver based calibration using computer simulation (GM managed to sign off some elements of the new Astra's DSC system using CarSim I believe), 90% of the work is still attribute driven (i.e. subjective driver assessment). This is not just company specific, but pretty true from what I've seen of all the work done by European manufacturers. Some of the far Eastern stuff is a little less exciting, but generally, we're the only people that get to drive over limit.I always perceived dynamics to have the interesting job before I'd heard about the ABS/DSC tuning, but having done some of the courses at MIRA that are designed for this job roll, they're not as exciting as I'd originally thought. The majority of ride and handling tuning is done from low speed up to limit (i.e. no big skids!), so no fully committed 'backing in to the corners' style driving. The tyre testers seem to have fun though, and the contracted durability drivers at the 'Ring don't have the worst job in the world despite having to hack around in various Far Eastern SUVs in between the odd Nissan GTR and 911 Turbo.
OP: Depending on whether you're more interested in the driving or calibration means you can choose which direction you wish to go in, but my best advice would be go out, have some fun doing some karting or indeed a few decent driving course which have some sort of assessment at the end, and you'd at least have something to allow demonstration of ability. No one really minds if you're not going to set a new lap record, but an ability to think about other stuff whilst countersteering in the middle of Swedenkreuz is the main requirement. In other words, driving a car over limit needs to be subconscious so you can assess the attribute relevant to that situation. The only way of getting to that point is though practice.
So, whilst most companies do have their own set of driver training course that you would need to take, doing something like the MIRA course would definitely be worthwile....as long as you take it as a fun day or two and some good driving practice.
But overall....if you want to get in to a vehicle development roll, keep at it and stay focused! If you have it in mind that you really, really want to do that, then I'm a strong believer that you eventually will as enthusiasm and general interest counts for a huge amount....far more than qualifications!
Edited by RacerMike on Wednesday 8th May 14:22
karl_h said:
MIRA driver course
karl_h,Downside : I'll warn you, it's not cheap
Upside : Its the best darn money you'll have ever spent in your entire driving life (except possibly paying for your driving lessons in order to get your license !
) You won't find anything like it anywhere else, I'll guarantee you that.PM me if you need more info.
P.S. To the person that said " Roadcraft based rather than mad vehicle handling skills" .... the guys who run the driving courses at MIRA don't think much of Roadcraft..... whenever they get Police drivers down, they take great pleasure in demonstrating why Roadcraft shouldn't be perceived as the bible its made out to be.
Edited by justanother on Friday 10th May 23:01
justanother said:
P.S. To the person that said " Roadcraft based rather than mad vehicle handling skills" .... the guys who run the driving courses at MIRA don't think much of Roadcraft..... whenever they get Police drivers down, they take great pleasure in demonstrating why Roadcraft shouldn't be perceived as the bible its made out to be.
Heresy!
To be fair, though, Roadcraft is about a basic, safe system of driving for bobbies to avoid trouble. It's not really about extreme driving, limit handling or the only way to drive, no matter what some think.
Edited by MC Bodge on Saturday 11th May 14:07
fesuvious said:
The definition of 'not cheap'?
How long does the course last?
There is no clear answer to either of those questions because it is quite a bespoke setup, they will want to chat to you about what you want to get out of your training with them before giving you a price that will be personal to you.How long does the course last?
Off the top of my head, one example a one day vehicle dynamics and awareness course will typically be in the region of £1,000 once you include the VAT etc.
But for that, you get one-on-one tuition with a senior vehicle dynamics engineer on single user facilities (i.e. just you on the track, you're not sharing it, queuing with others or sharing the facilities with a group like you find at other places such as Silverstone etc. ). Both engineers and facilities are world class at MIRA, as you might expect. 30 minute pre-brief in the morning, 40 minutes for lunch (included at the on-site canteen), 30-40 minute thorough debrief at the end .... the rest of your day, from about 0830 to 1730 is spent out on the facilities with your time split between the straight line and cornering wet grip surfaces and the dry handling and stability circuit. Its a very intensive day. You get use of two of their cars, a BMW M3 and a Honda Civic Type R. If you can convince your insurers to cover you and you're progressing well in the day, they _might_ even let you take your own car out onto the facilities towards the end of the day. Remember to leave your camera at home, security will place tamper proof stickers on smart phones.... so don't even think about trying anything sneaky.
Another example would be a half-day "roadcraft"...... much cheaper (about a 1/4 of the price) than the above because its on public roads, so you're not paying for track time or other use of their facilities, all you're really paying for is half a day of a senior vehicle dynamics engineer's time to sit with you in your car. Obviously not as much fun though since you have to drive within the law and constraints of public highways, but they do know the good roads round there.
Edited by justanother on Saturday 11th May 15:18
MC Bodge said:
justanother said:
P.S. To the person that said " Roadcraft based rather than mad vehicle handling skills" .... the guys who run the driving courses at MIRA don't think much of Roadcraft..... whenever they get Police drivers down, they take great pleasure in demonstrating why Roadcraft shouldn't be perceived as the bible its made out to be.
Heresy!To be fair, though, Roadcraft is about a basic, safe system of driving for bobbies to avoid trouble. It's not really about extreme driving, limit handling or the only way to drive, no matter what some think.
Edited by MC Bodge on Saturday 11th May 14:07
mph1977 said:
roadcraft is for a effective road driving , testing and racing is different in that the number of external hazards are limited by virtue of access control and generally people are all heading in the same direction ...
True, although I should point out the comment I made above was the MIRA peeps looking at Roadcraft in its correct context, rather than in the context of the MIRA facilities.How would the MIRA peeps recommend driving on the road? I've done training at MIRA on more than one occasion. They aren't road driving experts. They are limit handling experts, which is far from the most important thing in road driving.
At race school, I heard the instructors criticise the police (for using pull-push). But the police aren't driving on track.
Whereas road driving is very much a Class 1 police driver's expertise. It's horses for courses.
At race school, I heard the instructors criticise the police (for using pull-push). But the police aren't driving on track.
Whereas road driving is very much a Class 1 police driver's expertise. It's horses for courses.
Gassing Station | Advanced Driving | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff