learner drivers
Discussion
And being 'considerate' whilst following one.
I know different types of road user need to be treated differently (eg lorries need space to turn, big blindspots etc etc) but what extra care/consideration should be taken when following a learner?
Coming back from Tesco today in Dads 53year old (bright yellow) Land Rover, I joined a cue of traffic behind a learner driver in a tutor car.
Now I know large vehicles can worry some learners, so I left a big (3 car lengths on a 30mph road) gap between us, but otherwise I just drove as normal.
I followed for about 2 miles and the learner seemed to steadily worsen, getting slower and slower to the point where I had to change down from 4th to 3rd and then 2nd gear whilst in free flowing traffic (going down hill, I didn't want to overtake incase it made them panic) wandering all over the road, spending more time looking in their rearview mirror than in front... (the instructor was getting more and more animated aswell)
Was I unintentionally scareing them? is 3 car lengths behind still too close? or was the learner just having a bad lesson?
I know different types of road user need to be treated differently (eg lorries need space to turn, big blindspots etc etc) but what extra care/consideration should be taken when following a learner?
Coming back from Tesco today in Dads 53year old (bright yellow) Land Rover, I joined a cue of traffic behind a learner driver in a tutor car.
Now I know large vehicles can worry some learners, so I left a big (3 car lengths on a 30mph road) gap between us, but otherwise I just drove as normal.
I followed for about 2 miles and the learner seemed to steadily worsen, getting slower and slower to the point where I had to change down from 4th to 3rd and then 2nd gear whilst in free flowing traffic (going down hill, I didn't want to overtake incase it made them panic) wandering all over the road, spending more time looking in their rearview mirror than in front... (the instructor was getting more and more animated aswell)
Was I unintentionally scareing them? is 3 car lengths behind still too close? or was the learner just having a bad lesson?
Edited by real4star on Friday 22 March 00:57
Nothing leaps out at me from what you say. If a car length is, say, 5m, then 3 car lengths is a little over the 2 second rule distance at 30mph. Any learner is going to have to get used to dealing with people following a lot less politely than that. One thought - did you have your headlights on? I guess they'd be higher on your Land Rover than on a car so perhaps if they were on, even dipped they could have been a distraction in the mirrors.
The main thing I bear in mind with learners is that this might be the first time they've tried to drive a car and they might not be very good at it yet, so if they make mistakes I approach it with a liberal application of patience (as, of course, I ought to do with anyone who makes a mistake). As for things like following and passing, beyond anticipating that they are perhaps even more likely than others to do something erratic, I don't think I treat learners differently to anyone else.
The main thing I bear in mind with learners is that this might be the first time they've tried to drive a car and they might not be very good at it yet, so if they make mistakes I approach it with a liberal application of patience (as, of course, I ought to do with anyone who makes a mistake). As for things like following and passing, beyond anticipating that they are perhaps even more likely than others to do something erratic, I don't think I treat learners differently to anyone else.
I will in the first instance keep at least double the safe gap until I can see at what stage the learner is
If I deem they are competant then I will close up to the usual safety gap
If the traffic behind me is getting agitated and closing up then I will extend the gap so as to control any possible sudden slowing down
If I deem they are competant then I will close up to the usual safety gap
If the traffic behind me is getting agitated and closing up then I will extend the gap so as to control any possible sudden slowing down
Middle of the afternoon, so my lights were off.
I'm assuming this wasn't their first lesson. I'm not sure a (good) instructor would take a new learner with unknown control skills around a congested one way system and through busy road works on their first lesson.
So apart from being aware that a learner is more likely to do something drastic than the average... treat them like everyone else on the road so they get used to it.
I'm assuming this wasn't their first lesson. I'm not sure a (good) instructor would take a new learner with unknown control skills around a congested one way system and through busy road works on their first lesson.
So apart from being aware that a learner is more likely to do something drastic than the average... treat them like everyone else on the road so they get used to it.
John145 said:
2 second gap at 30mph is...?
27m
Car length is...(defender 90)?
4m
Summary...
3 cars lengths at 30mph is much too close.
Sorry should explain the road had a 30 limit but due to road works and the time of day we were part of a cue.27m
Car length is...(defender 90)?
4m
Summary...
3 cars lengths at 30mph is much too close.
The Land Rover is a 109"LWB Series 2, with 77hp, 4 gears, unassisted steering and 11" drum brakes... driven accordingly (should also give you an idea of how slow we were going, if I had an oportunity to overtake just after the traffic cleared)
real4star said:
So apart from being aware that a learner is more likely to do something drastic than the average... treat them like everyone else on the road so they get used to it.
I'd say that about covers it, as long as the way I treat everyone else is with courtesy and respect, not anger and confrontation 
. Not so much 'so they get used to it' as 'because what more is necessary?'. I guess what I was getting at is that I find controlling my reaction when a learner does something daft to be a quite different and somewhat easier challenge than when a regular driver does similar. But that's my issue I suppose...John145 said:
2 second gap at 30mph is...?
27m
Car length is...(defender 90)?
4m
Summary...
3 cars lengths at 30mph is much too close.
Rule 126; never get closer than the overall stopping distance. So being pedantic that would be 23, not 27m. Page 140 of "Driving, the essential skills" is worth a look at too."In heavy, slow moving urban traffic that might not be practicable, without wasting valuable road space. However, even then, the gap should never be less than your thinking distance". So that'll be 9metres at 30mph (although the extra the op was leaving was sensible of course)27m
Car length is...(defender 90)?
4m
Summary...
3 cars lengths at 30mph is much too close.
I have found that Learners are more prone to changing lanes without looking, so never sit in that position, i.e. almost alongside.
They may also be thinking about an "emergency stop" - there are stories of them stamping on the brakes when the instructor scratched his ear!
But then the same could apply to any other driver around you, not just learners, so drive defensively.
They may also be thinking about an "emergency stop" - there are stories of them stamping on the brakes when the instructor scratched his ear!
But then the same could apply to any other driver around you, not just learners, so drive defensively.
7mike said:
SK425 said:
7mike said:
Rule 126; never get closer than the overall stopping distance.
The two second rule that we all know and love is closer than the overall stopping distance above about 40mph.. I saw the bit in your post where you said "never get closer than the overall stopping distance" but I missed the bit where you qualified "never" to mean "at 30mph or below".7mike said:
Rule 126; never get closer than the overall stopping distance. So being pedantic that would be 23, not 27m. Page 140 of "Driving, the essential skills" is worth a look at too."In heavy, slow moving urban traffic that might not be practicable, without wasting valuable road space. However, even then, the gap should never be less than your thinking distance". So that'll be 9metres at 30mph (although the extra the op was leaving was sensible of course)
But the OP was driving a 53 year old landy, which I'm pretty sure won't be able to stop as quickly as the Highway Code says unless it's been modified. Probably a bit close for comfort IMO.davepoth said:
But the OP was driving a 53 year old landy, which I'm pretty sure won't be able to stop as quickly as the Highway Code says unless it's been modified. Probably a bit close for comfort IMO.
The issue (as I understand it) is the behaviour of the learner (and instructor). As I wasn't there I'll believe the op when he says he was leaving a safe gap. Do you think the type or age of vehicle was what influenced the learner to slow down excessively?I believe a safe distance was maintained, 3 car lengths in traffic moving at around 10-15mph as (usually) when the obstruction clears the modern vehicles speed up faster, increasing the gap themselves.
When the traffic sped up, the learner didn't. To me they seemed to be more interested/worried about what I was doing than what was happening in front.
OT: For the record the brakes are perfect working order, maintained regularly with quality parts (shoes are Mintex, other components are Lockheed Girling) and she will stop well inside the highway code distances, if your too heavy footed you will lock all 4 wheels.
The belief that Land Rover drum brakes are bad IS A MYTH! (as long as they are regularly maintained and adjusted.)
When the traffic sped up, the learner didn't. To me they seemed to be more interested/worried about what I was doing than what was happening in front.
OT: For the record the brakes are perfect working order, maintained regularly with quality parts (shoes are Mintex, other components are Lockheed Girling) and she will stop well inside the highway code distances, if your too heavy footed you will lock all 4 wheels.
The belief that Land Rover drum brakes are bad IS A MYTH! (as long as they are regularly maintained and adjusted.)
I once had a pupil who got steadily worse over a couple of miles, right to the point where she put her hands in her lap & started crying "i don't want to do this anymore" 
It was nothing to do with anyone behind, she was just a bit odd
If you had been following you would have seen the instructor become a bit animated then too; it's fun driving at 40mph on a twisty lane from the left seat.
God, I miss teaching learners (not)
It was nothing to do with anyone behind, she was just a bit odd
If you had been following you would have seen the instructor become a bit animated then too; it's fun driving at 40mph on a twisty lane from the left seat.God, I miss teaching learners (not)
davepoth said:
But the OP was driving a 53 year old landy, which I'm pretty sure won't be able to stop as quickly as the Highway Code says unless it's been modified. Probably a bit close for comfort IMO.
Actually, I think the highway code distances were written about 53 years ago using a landy with dodgy brakes. I strongly suspect anything at all roadworthy driven by anyone even half awake can better those figures 
Would be interesting to do a test sometime - I have a fair idea what my stopping distances look like, but little idea what they measure. Equally I have little idea what the measured distances look like
You might find this interesting...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGkKDaYd3Mo
But of course braking distance is only part of the story. 'Thinking distance' in the highway code is based on the driver reacting in 0.7 seconds - that's to recognise something ahead that makes you go for maximum braking straight away, move your foot from accelerator to brake and then press hard - all in 0.7 seconds.
Could I do that reliably? To be honest, no. Could you? In practice many drivers would take much longer (inattention, chatting to passengers, on the phone, fiddling with radio etc etc) and until you are braking you are gobbling up the distance because your speed hasn't changed at all.
I think the Highway Code stopping distances are a guide that's still relevant today.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGkKDaYd3Mo
But of course braking distance is only part of the story. 'Thinking distance' in the highway code is based on the driver reacting in 0.7 seconds - that's to recognise something ahead that makes you go for maximum braking straight away, move your foot from accelerator to brake and then press hard - all in 0.7 seconds.
Could I do that reliably? To be honest, no. Could you? In practice many drivers would take much longer (inattention, chatting to passengers, on the phone, fiddling with radio etc etc) and until you are braking you are gobbling up the distance because your speed hasn't changed at all.
I think the Highway Code stopping distances are a guide that's still relevant today.
When teaching beginners I will never take them somewhere they can't cope with. We go somewhere quiet until they show good basic skills to go onto the next stage... However, whilst they can be very good on the quiet roads as soon as there is other traffic around they can go to pot. At the beginning, for some pupils every gear change can be a BIG deal. So when they have a vehicle (especially a large one) close behind this just adds to the pressure.
Now a bright yellow Land Rover is a classic example (normally it is large Transit type van). To see this in the mirror can be very, very intimidating to a new driver.
Try to be far enough back so that the learner can see the whole of your vehicle in their mirror. Not just your front grille.
Now a bright yellow Land Rover is a classic example (normally it is large Transit type van). To see this in the mirror can be very, very intimidating to a new driver.
Try to be far enough back so that the learner can see the whole of your vehicle in their mirror. Not just your front grille.
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