Multi car overtakes and the chance of someone pulling out
Discussion
This morning I found myself here: https://maps.google.co.uk/?ll=50.984937,-1.515813&...
In front was a tractor, doing 20mph, and a line of cars, roughly as follows:
Tractor
Citroen Picasso
Recent Renault Clio
Something maroon
Possibly something else
Fake M badged BMW E36
Me, cooking Alfa 156
Noone in the queue was showing any willingness to overtake as a very good but time limited opportunity developed after the double white lines finish. Admittedly I did not wait long before deciding to overtake, which I will come back to.
I did the IAM taught technique of getting offside, having a look (clear as far as visible) and committing.
Now I am very conscious of the chance of someone pulling out, so I keep an eye on the cars I'm passing. I also know that the chance increases as I near the front of the queue, as the typical driver is reticent to do multi-car overtakes.
In line with that thinking, before I pass the Clio I pip the horn as a warning. Despite this, as I am nearly alongside the Clio, the driver begins indicating and moving out. The Picasso is still in front of her. I use the horn again, but there is a collision. Fortunately all that has happened is my wing mirror has been folded in, and, it transpires once we later pull in, the glass in hers is damaged. The other driver was an elderly lady.
What is the consensus on this kind of situation?
I'm also interested in your view on the initial use of the horn.
In a way I feel that I've been taught a lesson about the risk threshold in this scenario being too high, especially without waiting sufficiently long for the situation to develop. In another way I feel that I exercised a good technique that probably prevented a worse outcome.
Although I regard it as less important than avoiding the accident, I'm also curious as to what the liability view would be. She didn't check her mirrors before the manoeuvre, and yet I was doing something that could be described as 'fraught with difficulty', a bit like filtering on a bike.
In front was a tractor, doing 20mph, and a line of cars, roughly as follows:
Tractor
Citroen Picasso
Recent Renault Clio
Something maroon
Possibly something else
Fake M badged BMW E36
Me, cooking Alfa 156
Noone in the queue was showing any willingness to overtake as a very good but time limited opportunity developed after the double white lines finish. Admittedly I did not wait long before deciding to overtake, which I will come back to.
I did the IAM taught technique of getting offside, having a look (clear as far as visible) and committing.
Now I am very conscious of the chance of someone pulling out, so I keep an eye on the cars I'm passing. I also know that the chance increases as I near the front of the queue, as the typical driver is reticent to do multi-car overtakes.
In line with that thinking, before I pass the Clio I pip the horn as a warning. Despite this, as I am nearly alongside the Clio, the driver begins indicating and moving out. The Picasso is still in front of her. I use the horn again, but there is a collision. Fortunately all that has happened is my wing mirror has been folded in, and, it transpires once we later pull in, the glass in hers is damaged. The other driver was an elderly lady.
What is the consensus on this kind of situation?
I'm also interested in your view on the initial use of the horn.
In a way I feel that I've been taught a lesson about the risk threshold in this scenario being too high, especially without waiting sufficiently long for the situation to develop. In another way I feel that I exercised a good technique that probably prevented a worse outcome.
Although I regard it as less important than avoiding the accident, I'm also curious as to what the liability view would be. She didn't check her mirrors before the manoeuvre, and yet I was doing something that could be described as 'fraught with difficulty', a bit like filtering on a bike.
Edited by trashbat on Wednesday 20th March 09:39
I've carried out many multi car overtakes, once or twice it ended with cars three abreast, but I've never felt like I was going to touch another car, or that I was in a huge amount of danger. On one occasion the lead car was a police car, that didn't end very well for me.
The general population is becoming more risk averse, so I think multi car overtakes will become more common.
I know a lot of drivers don't like it, I can hear them beeping their horns as I go past!
The general population is becoming more risk averse, so I think multi car overtakes will become more common.
I know a lot of drivers don't like it, I can hear them beeping their horns as I go past!
trashbat said:
In line with that thinking, before I pass the Clio I pip the horn as a warning.
My own personal feeling is that if you are considering using the horn, you need to do it such that you give yourself time to check for a response (you're alerting someone to your presence, and you want some form of acknowledgement before committing). Without a response, are you any better off than not using the horn? Might also be worth considering whether a 'pip' is enough to gain their attention - some car's horns can be a tad asthmatic and you might want to reinforce it a series of pips or with headlights until you're happy they're aware of you 
From an insurance perspective, I'd be guessing 50/50 liability unless you could prove conclusively that your overtake was safe and the lady drove into you, but I can't see them wanting to fight too hard over it
Chris
I often do multicar overtakes and is very rare that someone does pull out, if they do my reaction depends on the road, firstly if I think they haven'#t seen me I sound the horn, if they still insist on pulling out then i drop back and try to slip into the space they vacated unless there is enough clear road for us both to complete the overtake.
I tend to hold off multicar passes if I think that all of the cars are too close together for me to be able to pull back in.
TBH I think the OP executed the overtake well, surely its up to the cars being passed to check its clear before they move out? The problem is when the slow vehicle is a tractor the chance of other people pulling out is much higher than if it was a truck doing 45, so I would have been very circumspect.
If we all wait for the slow decision ditherers to overtake then journeys will take even longer (especially round here)
I tend to hold off multicar passes if I think that all of the cars are too close together for me to be able to pull back in.
TBH I think the OP executed the overtake well, surely its up to the cars being passed to check its clear before they move out? The problem is when the slow vehicle is a tractor the chance of other people pulling out is much higher than if it was a truck doing 45, so I would have been very circumspect.
If we all wait for the slow decision ditherers to overtake then journeys will take even longer (especially round here)
ScoobyChris said:
My own personal feeling is that if you are considering using the horn, you need to do it such that you give yourself time to check for a response (you're alerting someone to your presence, and you want some form of acknowledgement before committing). Without a response, are you any better off than not using the horn? Might also be worth considering whether a 'pip' is enough to gain their attention - some car's horns can be a tad asthmatic and you might want to reinforce it a series of pips or with headlights until you're happy they're aware of you :DChris
It's a good point. This certainly applies if you're using the horn to let some unknown road user know of your presence (e.g. blind bends, humpback bridges). Certainly you can't expect its usage alone to serve as a free pass into whatever that hazard is. I've had exactly this discussion on a driving day recently.When used as to gain attention or as a wake up call, is this still true? I don't expect to see a reaction, and nor can I really hang around waiting for one.
However I think the prescient point this raises is about investing anything in that technique. I can't assume it has achieved anything, so if I have to behave as if it isn't available. In that case, am I happy to proceed?
I'm conscious that I can also be lax in mirror observation myself, and if done to me, it would focus my attention appropriately, so I do regard it as good technique. Perhaps though I use it to gain confidence/comfort where none is due. That's one to reflect on.
Snowboy said:
A different perspective....
The lady heard the beep, thought it was the car behind telling her to overtake, so she pulled out.
The beep was actually the cause of the accident.
Maybe?
This has occurred to me; or similarly, that it was me giving way.The lady heard the beep, thought it was the car behind telling her to overtake, so she pulled out.
The beep was actually the cause of the accident.
Maybe?
Is there a better solution?
What gets motorbikes noticed in such a scenario, apart from the sound? Full beam?
Edited by trashbat on Wednesday 20th March 11:06
trashbat said:
Snowboy said:
A different perspective....
The lady heard the beep, thought it was the car behind telling her to overtake, so she pulled out.
The beep was actually the cause of the accident.
Maybe?
This has occurred to me; or similarly, that it was me giving way.The lady heard the beep, thought it was the car behind telling her to overtake, so she pulled out.
The beep was actually the cause of the accident.
Maybe?
Is there a better solution?
What gets motorbikes noticed in such a scenario, apart from the sound? Full beam?
Edited by trashbat on Wednesday 20th March 11:06
Just floor the gas and get past.
If I didn't feel safe overtaking without beeping then I wouldn't overtake.
Full beam is just as bad as it looks like you flashing them out, or it dazzles the other driver.
I just do a solid confident overtake.
Just have your brain turned up to 11 abd be ready to brake or evade if needed.
Snowboy said:
I would never consider beeping while overtaking.
Just floor the gas and get past.
If I didn't feel safe overtaking without beeping then I wouldn't overtake.
Full beam is just as bad as it looks like you flashing them out, or it dazzles the other driver.
I just do a solid confident overtake.
Just have your brain turned up to 11 abd be ready to brake or evade if needed.
+1Just floor the gas and get past.
If I didn't feel safe overtaking without beeping then I wouldn't overtake.
Full beam is just as bad as it looks like you flashing them out, or it dazzles the other driver.
I just do a solid confident overtake.
Just have your brain turned up to 11 abd be ready to brake or evade if needed.
Kawasicki said:
I've carried out many multi car overtakes, once or twice it ended with cars three abreast, but I've never felt like I was going to touch another car, or that I was in a huge amount of danger. On one occasion the lead car was a police car, that didn't end very well for me.
The general population is becoming more risk averse, so I think multi car overtakes will become more common.
I know a lot of drivers don't like it, I can hear them beeping their horns as I go past!
Do please tell us the whole story. Did someone pull out on you? Were you exceeding the speed limit? The general population is becoming more risk averse, so I think multi car overtakes will become more common.
I know a lot of drivers don't like it, I can hear them beeping their horns as I go past!
Cliftonite said:
Kawasicki said:
I've carried out many multi car overtakes, once or twice it ended with cars three abreast, but I've never felt like I was going to touch another car, or that I was in a huge amount of danger. On one occasion the lead car was a police car, that didn't end very well for me.
The general population is becoming more risk averse, so I think multi car overtakes will become more common.
I know a lot of drivers don't like it, I can hear them beeping their horns as I go past!
Do please tell us the whole story. Did someone pull out on you? Were you exceeding the speed limit? The general population is becoming more risk averse, so I think multi car overtakes will become more common.
I know a lot of drivers don't like it, I can hear them beeping their horns as I go past!
Very luckily the case before mine involved a truck driver getting fined for holding up the flow of traffic, driving along the same stretch of road...at 30mph.
Also, a ruling just a few days earlier meant that driving without due care and attention did not call for licence endorsement, I heard this by chance when I was sat outside the courtroom. So the judge listened to me, said something under his breath, then dropped the endorsement. I breathed a sigh of relief and that was that.
My solicitor was rubbish, I actually think he was intimidated by the judge.
If I was in your position, when I committed to the over take if I saw any indicators going or anyone looking like they may pull out I would sound the horn continuously until I passed them. A quick beep might not be heard or the other driver might not identify where the sound is coming from.
I don't see the point in a quick beep, the horn is the last resort for "I'm here!".
I don't see the point in a quick beep, the horn is the last resort for "I'm here!".
These days I generally avoid using a headlight flash unless its meaning is truly obvious. The theory is that a flash means "I'm here" but in practice it is so often used as an invitation for someone to pull out in front of you that the risk of mis-interpretation is just too great.
The horn should be more obviously a warning of your presence but there is no rule that prevents deaf and hard of hearing people from driving and given that the other driver in this incedent was elderly, I would think there is a real possibility that she just didn't hear.
The horn should be more obviously a warning of your presence but there is no rule that prevents deaf and hard of hearing people from driving and given that the other driver in this incedent was elderly, I would think there is a real possibility that she just didn't hear.
gdaybruce said:
The horn should be more obviously a warning of your presence but there is no rule that prevents deaf and hard of hearing people from driving and given that the other driver in this incedent was elderly, I would think there is a real possibility that she just didn't hear.
They have to declare they are hard of hearing though same as if you need glasses, There's a Licence code to cover it From DVLA web site:
The codes printed on your driving licence tell you what conditions you must meet to drive.
The codes and their meanings are as follows:
01 - eyesight correction
02 - hearing/communication aid
trashbat said:
What gets motorbikes noticed in such a scenario, apart from the sound? Full beam?
I tend to find that most cars remain blissfully unaware of bikes until shortly after you are past them, which is nice. People do still tend to forget that the idea is to look where they are going, so you still get a few pulling out without looking. Luckily, there tends to be a lot more space to move a bike than a car, and you have the ability to move forwards or backwards quickly, relative to the overtaking car.Also, probably for the same reason that small inoffensive furry mammals tend to be very good at awareness, most drivers will telegraph a sudden move, either by a small movement left or right, or by moving their eyes in the direction of the mirror (still without seeing, bless 'em).
Mirror Signal and then Manoeuvre .This little phrase we have all been taught has to be the most under used procedure whilst driving with Manoeuvre usually being substituted into first place with the obvious results.
Your overtake sounds fine to me and if there is nothing oncoming the whole road is yours if the associated signage allows it ( i.e. no double white lines etc ).
I never use my horn on an overtake like this as it does not add anything. If you are travelling near the 60mph speed limit and the queue is not far off that then your horn will not be heard by those you want to hear it. Especially taking into account drivers chatting , stereo on blah blah blah. They might hear it when you are next to them but thats all and its too late then. You are best using full beam and not just flashing it , I mean a long intentional activation for a few seconds. Depending on the length of the overtake I would activate it once past the first car so I dont dazzle them in their rear view mirror. Other than that you will not dazzle anyone only give each car a flash as you drive past.
The 3rd party in this instance failed to adhere to MSM so I would put the fault on them.No different to them pulling out of a junction on you and 50/50 is harsh on you if insurance get involved
Your overtake sounds fine to me and if there is nothing oncoming the whole road is yours if the associated signage allows it ( i.e. no double white lines etc ).
I never use my horn on an overtake like this as it does not add anything. If you are travelling near the 60mph speed limit and the queue is not far off that then your horn will not be heard by those you want to hear it. Especially taking into account drivers chatting , stereo on blah blah blah. They might hear it when you are next to them but thats all and its too late then. You are best using full beam and not just flashing it , I mean a long intentional activation for a few seconds. Depending on the length of the overtake I would activate it once past the first car so I dont dazzle them in their rear view mirror. Other than that you will not dazzle anyone only give each car a flash as you drive past.
The 3rd party in this instance failed to adhere to MSM so I would put the fault on them.No different to them pulling out of a junction on you and 50/50 is harsh on you if insurance get involved
Gassing Station | Advanced Driving | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff