Discussion
I learned this technique when I had a VX220 Turbo ten years ago, I taught myself with some tips from people on SELOC.
My technique was left foot to dip the clutch, ball of my right foot on the brake and out step of my right foot to blip the throttle. With lots of practice I got it pretty smooth and was quite happy. I've got size 12 feet and the pedals were pretty close so it worked quite well.
I thought this was fairly standard practice, I am re-learning how to do it in an old Impreza at the moment and I need to brake with the toe of my right foot and use the heel to blip. The pedals are too far apart to use my vx-method. This is, presumably, the traditional way?
All fine (I think) but then I saw a video of Harry Metcalfe's Zonda and he was praising the pedal layout for being perfect for the heel and toe. He was talking about left foot braking though, using his left foot to operate clutch and brake and right foot t blip.
So am I completely wrong about my interpretation of heel and toe shifting?
My technique was left foot to dip the clutch, ball of my right foot on the brake and out step of my right foot to blip the throttle. With lots of practice I got it pretty smooth and was quite happy. I've got size 12 feet and the pedals were pretty close so it worked quite well.
I thought this was fairly standard practice, I am re-learning how to do it in an old Impreza at the moment and I need to brake with the toe of my right foot and use the heel to blip. The pedals are too far apart to use my vx-method. This is, presumably, the traditional way?
All fine (I think) but then I saw a video of Harry Metcalfe's Zonda and he was praising the pedal layout for being perfect for the heel and toe. He was talking about left foot braking though, using his left foot to operate clutch and brake and right foot t blip.
So am I completely wrong about my interpretation of heel and toe shifting?
No. Your method sounds right.
The method I learned is to press the brake with the toe of your right foot and to use the right hand side of your right foot to blip the throttle. All cars I have driven with any form of sporting ambition lay the pedals out so this is possible.
Most daily drivers have the brake and accelerator too far apart to make this possible. Deliberately, I suspect, to cater for people with big feet who would otherwise find it difficult.
In my clodhopping regular shoes I can't actually drive my Porsche as I mash two pedals together whether I want to or not. I have to wear boat shoes or my driving boots (yes - motorsport "boots" but I got them in leather instead of flock so I don't look like an idiot).
The method I learned is to press the brake with the toe of your right foot and to use the right hand side of your right foot to blip the throttle. All cars I have driven with any form of sporting ambition lay the pedals out so this is possible.
Most daily drivers have the brake and accelerator too far apart to make this possible. Deliberately, I suspect, to cater for people with big feet who would otherwise find it difficult.
In my clodhopping regular shoes I can't actually drive my Porsche as I mash two pedals together whether I want to or not. I have to wear boat shoes or my driving boots (yes - motorsport "boots" but I got them in leather instead of flock so I don't look like an idiot).
Lefty said:
Thanks, I'm not going nuts then!
I can't decide whether to make some modification to the pedals or just continue trying to adjust my technique, such as it is.
On most "pedestrian" cars (and vans) you do tend to need to rotate your right foot a little to reach the accelerator. You'll get it with practice.I can't decide whether to make some modification to the pedals or just continue trying to adjust my technique, such as it is.
davepoth said:
Lefty said:
Thanks, I'm not going nuts then!
I can't decide whether to make some modification to the pedals or just continue trying to adjust my technique, such as it is.
On most "pedestrian" cars (and vans) you do tend to need to rotate your right foot a little to reach the accelerator. You'll get it with practice.I can't decide whether to make some modification to the pedals or just continue trying to adjust my technique, such as it is.
james_gt3rs said:
The main problem with modern hatchbacks is the brakes are so over-servoed you can't heel and toe without going through the windscreen.
True. That and a lot of cars seem to have a significant play in all the pedals so you can push a couple of mil before it starts to do anything 
james_gt3rs said:
The main problem with modern hatchbacks is the brakes are so over-servoed you can't heel and toe without going through the windscreen.
Genuinely curious about this and have been reading up and attempting to practise. With what's said above, is it possible at all? Or only if one really wants to stop in a hurry?Anyone else heel & toeing in a Clio 200 or similar?
DocJock said:
Of course it's possible, unless you are a ham-fisted (footed) dullard.
Practice on your drive, in neutral, before attempting it on the road.
It is, of course, possible. But it does make it a tad tricky, unsubtle and can remove a lot of the advantage, particularly with the very over assisted types. Audi's and my mate's z3 spring to mind. On the other hand they're pretty vague on the brakes even when you're not trying to do clever things..Practice on your drive, in neutral, before attempting it on the road.
Don't know wrt the clio, try it and see..
upsidedownmark said:
Don't know wrt the clio, try it and see..
If it's anything like the 172, the full travel of the pedal seems to give effectively the same pressure at the callipers, it's like an on/off switch.I wonder what the legality/insurancality of fitting a smaller booster is?
james_gt3rs said:
The main problem with modern hatchbacks is the brakes are so over-servoed you can't heel and toe without going through the windscreen.
Not entirely true.My Mondeo has extremely (unnecessarily) sharp brakes. It did take a while, but I can Hn'T in it fine now. It just requires finesse
Whilst learning, footwear is important. Smooth, thin soles without knobbly tread around the edges are best.
It is also better with the throttle pedal extended higher.
Edited by MC Bodge on Wednesday 6th March 17:06
Practice makes perfect. The first few times you'll brake too hard, then you'll learn the right pedal pressure. You can try beginning the practice where you need more (brake) pedal pressure anyway, but of course the harder you're braking, the less safety margin you have if you f
k it up. Swings / roundabouts...
Give yourself 6 months to learn it fully - it'll be second nature then. Then you can start mixing it with DDC
k it up. Swings / roundabouts...Give yourself 6 months to learn it fully - it'll be second nature then. Then you can start mixing it with DDC
scarble said:
True. That and a lot of cars seem to have a significant play in all the pedals so you can push a couple of mil before it starts to do anything
The car itself is a big factor in how you'll heel and toe in it, and if it will work at all. In my 106 Rallye, the pedals are very close together. When H&T'ing a downshift in the Rallye, I use the ball of my right foot on the brake and blip the throttle with the outside edge of my foot. It helps that the Rallye's brake pedal is fairly stiff, with a good feel to what you're doing with it. There is no slack in it either, and the throttle is sharp to respond to an input. It's a great brake pedal for left foot braking for the same reason. The biggest issue in the 106 is that I have to wear my driving shoes to drive it, and not my work boots. I wear Adidas GSG9's at work because they are great to drive in, but even they are too wide for the 106 (I have size 11 feet, quite narrow too). That said, when I had my Impreza I would heel toe downshifts using the same method but in my Adidas GSG9's, which had a flared base along the outside edge and the back of the heel, making them really good for heel toe work. Shame they don't fit in my 106!Take say, one of the Astras at work. Useless for H&T because the brake pedal is slack, but when you do get a braking response it is grabby and too powerful. The throttle is extremely laggy too, completely scuppering any H&T work.
7db said:
Of course the harder you're braking, the better the platform you have for the blip.
Yes, hence why I recommended (suggested) perhaps starting in situations with firmer braking. The downside is that if you're braking firmly it's usually because a hazard is rapidly approaching. However you could try this in isolation, just find a straight bit of road with nobody following, and just practise changing down as if you were going into a bend.MC Bodge said:
james_gt3rs said:
The main problem with modern hatchbacks is the brakes are so over-servoed you can't heel and toe without going through the windscreen.
Not entirely true.My Mondeo has extremely (unnecessarily) sharp brakes. It did take a while, but I can Hn'T in it fine now. It just requires finesse
Whilst learning, footwear is important. Smooth, thin soles without knobbly tread around the edges are best.
It is also better with the throttle pedal extended higher.
Edited by MC Bodge on Wednesday 6th March 17:06
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