Reading the limit point, second nature?
Discussion
I'm well aware of the theory of setting your cornering speed through reading the limit point, however for whatever reason I still don't find I do it subconsciously. Unless I'm pressing on and I'm actively putting my mind to it, I'm sure I generally react to a corner when it's upon me rather than plan etc in advance.
Any pointers or is it just a matter of putting my mind to it?
Any pointers or is it just a matter of putting my mind to it?
Using the limit point as a guide to the tightness of a corner, when you canot see the other side of the corner, is all very well, but it means that you are ignoring the basic fact thatyou cannot see around the corner. You are therefore entering the corner in the hope that there will not be any obstacle hidden out of your sight line just around it.
The limit point is a guide and nothing else, the important thing being not to exceed the speed at which you can stop safely within the distance you can see to be safe. Just chucking your car into a blind bend in the hope that the road will be clear on the other side is not any form of advanced driving - it's stupidity.
Just because you fancy that you are a good/advanced driver does not change the basic limit of your vision, even if the limit point indicates that - for the moment - you can hold your current speed around it. It is a guide, and not a means of asessing the safe speed at which you can travel - unless you have X-ray eyes or second sight.
The limit point is a guide and nothing else, the important thing being not to exceed the speed at which you can stop safely within the distance you can see to be safe. Just chucking your car into a blind bend in the hope that the road will be clear on the other side is not any form of advanced driving - it's stupidity.
Just because you fancy that you are a good/advanced driver does not change the basic limit of your vision, even if the limit point indicates that - for the moment - you can hold your current speed around it. It is a guide, and not a means of asessing the safe speed at which you can travel - unless you have X-ray eyes or second sight.
The golden rule is driving to a speed so that you can stop in the distance that you can see to be clear. It's that which should dictate your entry speed into a corner, and thus as the limit point comes towards you or away from you, you adjust your speed accordingly. Using the limit point to adjust your speed in conjunction with an appropriate entry speed will effectively mean that you will still have that same margin of stopping distance that dictates your speed.
Promethius said:
Using the limit point as a guide to the tightness of a corner, when you canot see the other side of the corner, is all very well, but it means that you are ignoring the basic fact thatyou cannot see around the corner. You are therefore entering the corner in the hope that there will not be any obstacle hidden out of your sight line just around it.
The limit point is a guide and nothing else, the important thing being not to exceed the speed at which you can stop safely within the distance you can see to be safe. Just chucking your car into a blind bend in the hope that the road will be clear on the other side is not any form of advanced driving - it's stupidity.
Just because you fancy that you are a good/advanced driver does not change the basic limit of your vision, even if the limit point indicates that - for the moment - you can hold your current speed around it. It is a guide, and not a means of asessing the safe speed at which you can travel - unless you have X-ray eyes or second sight.
The limit point is a guide and nothing else, the important thing being not to exceed the speed at which you can stop safely within the distance you can see to be safe. Just chucking your car into a blind bend in the hope that the road will be clear on the other side is not any form of advanced driving - it's stupidity.
Just because you fancy that you are a good/advanced driver does not change the basic limit of your vision, even if the limit point indicates that - for the moment - you can hold your current speed around it. It is a guide, and not a means of asessing the safe speed at which you can travel - unless you have X-ray eyes or second sight.
My copy of Roadcraft only refers to the limit point as a means of assessing the distance in which I can stop, says nowt about judging the tightness of the bend. Somewhatfoolish said:
Also, don't rely on it for every corner - it doesn't work on sharp ones. I would love to hear of any methodical way of assessing those in real time.
Works for every corner or place of limited vision that I have ever come across in 30+ years but its one of those things that I find easier to explain at the time of doing it so there is a visual to useSomewhatfoolish said:
Also, don't rely on it for every corner - it doesn't work on sharp ones. I would love to hear of any methodical way of assessing those in real time.
Do you you mean the rate of change of the vp is too fast to process on a sharp corner? You sometimes use hedge or tree lines etc. to help predict a corner, however I doubt you could write a set of strict logical rules for it.
Just because the limit point is moving at the same rate does not mean that your current speed in suitable, for if you are using the LP as a cornering speed indicator for a blind bend you will still be unaware of any obstruction around the corner.
It's something we have all probably done, particularly on local roads which we know well, but that is a case of local knowledge working to your disadvantage. If the LP indicates that your current speed can be held around the corner, you may still be travelling too fast to avoid any obstruction or sudden tight bend beyond your current field of vision.
It's something we have all probably done, particularly on local roads which we know well, but that is a case of local knowledge working to your disadvantage. If the LP indicates that your current speed can be held around the corner, you may still be travelling too fast to avoid any obstruction or sudden tight bend beyond your current field of vision.
My understanding of the Limit Point:
The furthest point on your side of the road to which you have an uninterrupted and unthreatened view of the road surface.
Threats to that space (anywhere that something could emerge from) need to be considered separately.
At the risk of over-simplifying: there are two ways of coming to grief on a bend - 1.) falling off sideways because you were too fast for the level of grip available, or 2.) hitting something unseen around the bend because you were too fast to stop in the distance.
The speed that will give you time to stop is generally lower than what's required to stay shiny side up, so unless it's a very open bend with vision right across it then the correct use of the Limit Point is to give you the distance you need to be able to stop in.
Limit Point Analaysis (watching what the Limit Point is doing in relation to you - coming closer, staying static or moving away) gives an indication of the severity of the bend on the way in, and early notice that it's opening up on the way out. How quickly you react to it opening depends on whether you can see that it's not going to tighten again with a double apex.
The furthest point on your side of the road to which you have an uninterrupted and unthreatened view of the road surface.
Threats to that space (anywhere that something could emerge from) need to be considered separately.
At the risk of over-simplifying: there are two ways of coming to grief on a bend - 1.) falling off sideways because you were too fast for the level of grip available, or 2.) hitting something unseen around the bend because you were too fast to stop in the distance.
The speed that will give you time to stop is generally lower than what's required to stay shiny side up, so unless it's a very open bend with vision right across it then the correct use of the Limit Point is to give you the distance you need to be able to stop in.
Limit Point Analaysis (watching what the Limit Point is doing in relation to you - coming closer, staying static or moving away) gives an indication of the severity of the bend on the way in, and early notice that it's opening up on the way out. How quickly you react to it opening depends on whether you can see that it's not going to tighten again with a double apex.
For the purposes of the golden rule, consider the difference between:- the furthest bit of road you can see that is useable vs nearest point you can be reasonably be surprised from. The second is the one you need to consider for the golden rule and is the reason why people under-compensate for lateral hazards.
I find the raised limit point (vergeline, hedgeline, treeline) extremely useful for going faster and assessing bend shape and severity (as I do the cross-view, other vehicles etc) but useless for the golden rule.
Relative limit point speed tells you a little about approach speed (when you are entering a closing view you are in a slowing phase until you match limit point speed) but more important is your projected stopping point relative to the limit. I often ask myself whether I'd be happy with a lead vehicle as close as the limit point at any particular speed and then shedding its load.
I find the raised limit point (vergeline, hedgeline, treeline) extremely useful for going faster and assessing bend shape and severity (as I do the cross-view, other vehicles etc) but useless for the golden rule.
Relative limit point speed tells you a little about approach speed (when you are entering a closing view you are in a slowing phase until you match limit point speed) but more important is your projected stopping point relative to the limit. I often ask myself whether I'd be happy with a lead vehicle as close as the limit point at any particular speed and then shedding its load.
Police Advanced driver for many years (now ex bobby)
The limit point does work and its all about thinking ahead and reading the road.
I used my skills attained in my 5 week driving course/pursuit training, transferring them to my everyday driving/riding a m/c.
Some things you adapt when not driving a police car ie steering, but overall its about safe progression through traffic.
The limit point does work and its all about thinking ahead and reading the road.
I used my skills attained in my 5 week driving course/pursuit training, transferring them to my everyday driving/riding a m/c.
Some things you adapt when not driving a police car ie steering, but overall its about safe progression through traffic.
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