Overtaking cyclists
Discussion
I've noticed, during my recent travels (commute), that it seems like more and more people are afraid to overtake cyclists and will therefore sit behind them for ages causing huge tailbacks. This is not a criticism of the cyclists themselves as these are your 'commuting' cyclists, well prepared and capable of riding a bike in a straight line.
Now, it seems like in most of these situations the car is waiting for a big enough gap to give the cyclist room to fall over into the road and this simply doesn't happen during a busy commute.
So my question is, as a driver, would you wait patiently behind the cyclist until you a gap big enough to go around ther cyclist, leaving room for them to fall off (i.e. their height) and in the process have a huge queue build up behind or would you judge the cyclist as being competant (based on how they're cycling) and reduce the space you give them to make progress?
Me, personally I'll overtake, reducing that space. They're 'commuters' so not your 'family out for a cycle on a Sunday'.
Now, it seems like in most of these situations the car is waiting for a big enough gap to give the cyclist room to fall over into the road and this simply doesn't happen during a busy commute.
So my question is, as a driver, would you wait patiently behind the cyclist until you a gap big enough to go around ther cyclist, leaving room for them to fall off (i.e. their height) and in the process have a huge queue build up behind or would you judge the cyclist as being competant (based on how they're cycling) and reduce the space you give them to make progress?
Me, personally I'll overtake, reducing that space. They're 'commuters' so not your 'family out for a cycle on a Sunday'.
The thought of the possibility of them falling over does make me wince so I try to look ahead of them for anything which might cause them to deviate from their line. However, as you say it isn't practicable to allow them six feet of margin- I try to give them three feet or more where possible, but it's often as little as two.
HustleRussell said:
The thought of the possibility of them falling over does make me wince so I try to look ahead of them for anything which might cause them to deviate from their line. However, as you say it isn't practicable to allow them six feet of margin- I try to give them three feet or more where possible, but it's often as little as two.
Just to clarify, I'm not talking about brushing your wing mirror against their elbows as you bomb it past 
I think '3 feet' is probably a fair compromise for the purposes of this discussion.I won't reduce the passing separation because of traffic volumes, either oncoming or following. However I might not extend the passing separation as I would on an empty road.
Rog's point is a good one. I think it's legitimate to expect oncoming traffic to facilitate the overtake by moving slightly left, just as you would in a slow moving city environment when oncoming traffic is blocked by a vehicle parked on their side.
If I'm stuck behind a cyclist for any time, it's usually that my overtake is off due to bends, other hazards like junctions ahead, etc, and not just oncoming traffic.
Rog's point is a good one. I think it's legitimate to expect oncoming traffic to facilitate the overtake by moving slightly left, just as you would in a slow moving city environment when oncoming traffic is blocked by a vehicle parked on their side.
If I'm stuck behind a cyclist for any time, it's usually that my overtake is off due to bends, other hazards like junctions ahead, etc, and not just oncoming traffic.
I try and leave a decent gap and if that means waiting for a gap in the oncoming traffic and moving well out around then I will. If it's a wide well sighted road then I would just drive past. To some extent it also depends on other cars, whether an oncoming car has moved to the left of their lane to give you more space to overtake for example.
MagicalTrevor said:
Just to clarify, I'm not talking about brushing your wing mirror against their elbows as you bomb it past I think '3 feet' is probably a fair compromise for the purposes of this discussion.
Have you tried a quick beep of the horn to make them notice you? Maybe they are one of the dopey sods who listen to music on their bike? I think '3 feet' is probably a fair compromise for the purposes of this discussion.I'd say 3 feet is not enough. If the cyclist needs to avoid a pothole / pedestrian then you're easily going to clip them. Also I'm not sure if you've been a "commuting cyclist", but I've had experiences in the past where you get the vacuum effect when a car passes when there's a sidewind, which can throw you off line and if the next car is giving 3 feet too then you'll probably get clipped. So on roads I have commuted on with a bike, and know some of the dangers, then yes 3ft is probably just about ok but I always try and give at least 4-5ft if I can.
I do get very frustrated with cyclists who after being overtaken by a line of cars, then think it's sensible to make their way to the front of traffic at the lights, so that everyone has to go through the same rigmarole again. Then again these are probably the same people who are MLMs who have no awareness of other road users.
jgs82 said:
I do get very frustrated with cyclists who after being overtaken by a line of cars, then think it's sensible to make their way to the front of traffic at the lights, so that everyone has to go through the same rigmarole again. Then again these are probably the same people who are MLMs who have no awareness of other road users.
I've discussed this issue before with people on here, seems to be a reasonably common view. What is it that you propose cyclists do when they encounter a queue of traffic? From what I understand, it can be beneficial to a cyclist's safety for them to be at the front at traffic lights as this will mean they are more likely to be seen than when they are somewhere back in the queue and/or alongside vehicles. Also, I know that if I had to wait in long queues behind any cars which may or may not have previously overtaken me at some point, then I'd be more likely to not bother cycling, and would instead just add to the traffic by driving.
I think the manner in which drivers approach and handle tricky overtakes (in particular cyclists, but also others) is a good measure of their driving attitude and skill. Is it worth getting past? (will they just overtake in 50 yards at the red lights), where do I sit whilst looking to pass? (am I right up his rear wheel or speed matched and back?), where do I chose to pass and how? (use of space and speed).
Urban cyclists are hard to pass and stay ahead of -- they have a similar average speed to cars in traffic, but quite different variation in speed which creates a lot of conflict.
I'd seek to give them as much room as a car when passing (which is not to say being fully offside as the offside of the bike is nearer the kerb than that of a car), but at least 3ft for a crawl past and significantly more for any significant difference in speed.
Urban cyclists are hard to pass and stay ahead of -- they have a similar average speed to cars in traffic, but quite different variation in speed which creates a lot of conflict.
I'd seek to give them as much room as a car when passing (which is not to say being fully offside as the offside of the bike is nearer the kerb than that of a car), but at least 3ft for a crawl past and significantly more for any significant difference in speed.
What prompted this discussion was a cyclist on a NSL stretch of road backing up the traffic at around 20mph. I was going the other way and wondered why they wouldn't edge across to encourage oncoming traffic to move left.
Generally, I take the view that I position myself so that oncoming traffic can see that I'm trying to give the cyclist a wide berth and then choose a good position based on the cyclists actions and the road itself.
Generally, I take the view that I position myself so that oncoming traffic can see that I'm trying to give the cyclist a wide berth and then choose a good position based on the cyclists actions and the road itself.
On the point about looking ahead to see if the cyclist is likely to have to deviate look at the cyclists road positioning. A confident cyclist will be 2-3 feet from the kerb to avoid most potholes and will be able to move left to avoid them. One that has been pushed into the kerb wil have nowhere to go but right.
If you're going to reduce passing space then reduce the speed differential too.
If you want a cyclists eye view then look at youtube and search cyclingmikey, he's very good normally
If you're going to reduce passing space then reduce the speed differential too.
If you want a cyclists eye view then look at youtube and search cyclingmikey, he's very good normally
jgs82 said:
I do get very frustrated with cyclists who after being overtaken by a line of cars, then think it's sensible to make their way to the front of traffic at the lights, so that everyone has to go through the same rigmarole again. Then again these are probably the same people who are MLMs who have no awareness of other road users.
Have you noticed those green painted areas in front of many traffic lights, the one with a cyclist painted on? The one often occupied by tossers who can't drive! This area is for cyclists to sit in safely with out the risk of the non indicating left turner taking them out and meaning we don't have to sit sucking the nasty fumes from cars/buses/vans etc.As a non lycra wearing cyclist (and driver) who obeys the rules of the road, gives space to cars and other cyclists and anticipates the crap drivers who don't give us room, turn across us etc I don't expect much from drivers but I do expect them to value my life slightly more than the 20 seconds they saved getting to work.
Why as a cyclist would I possibly sit in a queue of traffic, as someone else said I might as well just drive. If you can't negotiate your way past a couple of cyclists on the way to work in the morning I would suggest you take some driving lessons, it aint rocket science.
I also ride regularly (or used to), so some thoughts on the topics discussed from that PoV:
- It is frustrating to have traffic build up behind you because of someone's reluctance to overtake
- Keeping your distance alleviates this but the problem remains
- Reluctance to pass can also lead to more rash overtakes, not necessarily on the part of said driver but someone further back
- I will judge you on the competence of your apparent intentions, and if I think you are going for a disastrous overtake, my best option is probably to quickly stop, and this may give you further difficulties
- Please make your overtakes expedient; not fast per se, but time spent in any way alongside is dangerous time (and to a lesser extent, so is any phase of the overtake), so minimise it
- As an experienced cyclist, I don't need quite the amount of passing separation shown in the Highway Code. On most roads, for a passing car, offside wheels just over the painted lines is probably OK
- In queues, I will filter forwards (offside) past previous overtakers if I believe it will make a difference as to whether I get through the lights in the next phase. This is an advantage of being small and nimble. Drivers have their own!
- Generally I won't overtake if it doesn't gain me a potential advantage in the medium term, although this is more considered behaviour than you can expect
R0G said:
I found that most will not 'push' the oncoming traffic over in plenty of time to make the room
They seem to think that they must not cross the centre line if another is coming the other way regardless of how much possible road space there is
I find this view surprising - do you "push" oncoming traffic over to overtake cars too?They seem to think that they must not cross the centre line if another is coming the other way regardless of how much possible road space there is
When I am on my bike, my main fear about dodgy overtakes is that if the oncoming car doesn't brake or move over, the overtaker will not take the head on collision like a man, he will take me off the bike.
I was thinking about this yesterday. I followed an old Capri home which brought back happy nostalgic feelings until we came upon a cyclist. Despite nothing coming the other way, he decided to hang back and not go past. I didn't want to risk overtaking them both in case he pulled out so I followed slowly for a while. Luckily he decided to pass in the end.
This is an interesting topic and I wonder what people would do in the following scenario:
A few weekends ago, I came upon a large group of cyclists (we live on one of the marked cycling routes so not uncommon to have Racers or small recreational groups) however this bunch seemed to be the "Freewheeler Club" or whatever all out for a jolly rather than doing a TimeTrial and riding at (I would estimate) sub-10mph speeds. They were riding 2 or more abreast in places and occupying the whole of the nearside lane and did not alter their riding style when I approached even though the rear rider turned and spotted me. They were also spread out over quite a distance, but without enough space between individuals to "Leapfrog" an overtake.
On this occasion, I had a nice clear, straight section of road coming up and after a brief "pip" on the horn to alert them to my presence, I was able to overtake in one manoeuvre. However, what would you do should there not be a suitable sight line?
A few weekends ago, I came upon a large group of cyclists (we live on one of the marked cycling routes so not uncommon to have Racers or small recreational groups) however this bunch seemed to be the "Freewheeler Club" or whatever all out for a jolly rather than doing a TimeTrial and riding at (I would estimate) sub-10mph speeds. They were riding 2 or more abreast in places and occupying the whole of the nearside lane and did not alter their riding style when I approached even though the rear rider turned and spotted me. They were also spread out over quite a distance, but without enough space between individuals to "Leapfrog" an overtake.
On this occasion, I had a nice clear, straight section of road coming up and after a brief "pip" on the horn to alert them to my presence, I was able to overtake in one manoeuvre. However, what would you do should there not be a suitable sight line?
Why cyclists want to ride en masse is something to do with the herd instinct - pity they don't read the highway code sometime.
Any group of riders or drivers seem to love being in 'convoy' which means they hold up other people and travel too close to each other - a pointless and stupid exercise, but how ofdten to you see car enthusiasts telling of arranging a convoy to get somewhere or other - perhaps they can't find the way by themselves . . .
Any group of riders or drivers seem to love being in 'convoy' which means they hold up other people and travel too close to each other - a pointless and stupid exercise, but how ofdten to you see car enthusiasts telling of arranging a convoy to get somewhere or other - perhaps they can't find the way by themselves . . .
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