Objection to overtake
Discussion
This is almost certainly a repost but the absence of the search function I'd be interested to hear if you think my indignance is justified!
Friday night, journey from London area to south coast. Route was M3 to j5 then the B3349 to Alton and beyond. A lovely stretch of road for some low-risk enthusiastic driving within 10-20% of the NSL, but not much chance at rush hour.
Joined the B3349 behind a Smart and feared the worst. Fears soon confirmed as Smart dawdled at 10 mph below the posted limit (40, 50). I decided the earliest realistic opportunity for the overtake would be on the exit of Wanborough as the 40 becomes NSL. I've tried posting a map... may not work. The road is a gentle left hander becoming a right after a short straight, visibility good especially at night when oncoming headlights give away the presence of traffic.
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&tab=wl
Exiting the 40 I engaged 3rd and moved fully into the offside to gain visibility, decided the pass was on, indicated and executed the pass. I gave the Smart good clearance and pulled back to the left as the impending RH bend was approaching. I had both offside wheels just over the centre line as an oncoming car appeared around the bend.
Said car presumably objected to the move and high-beamed me. I could have moved left more aggresively, but that would have been to cut up the Smart.
A touch rude I thought, not to mention the ill-advised decision to dazzle a car that is travelling at some speed towards you.
The way I see it, the move was safe, legal, correctly and considerately executed and I gained an advantage.
Do others get such intolerance from oncoming traffic?!
Friday night, journey from London area to south coast. Route was M3 to j5 then the B3349 to Alton and beyond. A lovely stretch of road for some low-risk enthusiastic driving within 10-20% of the NSL, but not much chance at rush hour.
Joined the B3349 behind a Smart and feared the worst. Fears soon confirmed as Smart dawdled at 10 mph below the posted limit (40, 50). I decided the earliest realistic opportunity for the overtake would be on the exit of Wanborough as the 40 becomes NSL. I've tried posting a map... may not work. The road is a gentle left hander becoming a right after a short straight, visibility good especially at night when oncoming headlights give away the presence of traffic.
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&tab=wl
Exiting the 40 I engaged 3rd and moved fully into the offside to gain visibility, decided the pass was on, indicated and executed the pass. I gave the Smart good clearance and pulled back to the left as the impending RH bend was approaching. I had both offside wheels just over the centre line as an oncoming car appeared around the bend.
Said car presumably objected to the move and high-beamed me. I could have moved left more aggresively, but that would have been to cut up the Smart.
A touch rude I thought, not to mention the ill-advised decision to dazzle a car that is travelling at some speed towards you.
The way I see it, the move was safe, legal, correctly and considerately executed and I gained an advantage.
Do others get such intolerance from oncoming traffic?!
Had this fairly regularly...
The one that sticks in my mind was on the a224 orpington bound from J4 of the m25..
Those that know the road will know there are two straights first NSL and the second a 40...
It's middle if the day Sunday an the first NSL straight (3/4 mile long ish and gently downhill) is clear of oncoming traffic barring a 7.5T DFS lorry rounding the corner and a dawdles at 40 mph ahead, in the 335i I move to pass slowly as the gap is substantial, overtake completed a good 400 yards before the oncoming lorry, only the lorry starts flashing repeatedly, and even swerves into my lane before pulling back at the last moment (still flashing)...totally unjustified IMO
The one that sticks in my mind was on the a224 orpington bound from J4 of the m25..
Those that know the road will know there are two straights first NSL and the second a 40...
It's middle if the day Sunday an the first NSL straight (3/4 mile long ish and gently downhill) is clear of oncoming traffic barring a 7.5T DFS lorry rounding the corner and a dawdles at 40 mph ahead, in the 335i I move to pass slowly as the gap is substantial, overtake completed a good 400 yards before the oncoming lorry, only the lorry starts flashing repeatedly, and even swerves into my lane before pulling back at the last moment (still flashing)...totally unjustified IMO
As posted on many other threads it seems that a large percentage of road users object to overtaking in general, whether it effects their journey in any way or not.
I must admit though it is more difficult to judge closing distances in the dark. If I see a car overtaking and approaching in my lane at night I do usually let off the throttle a bit as it takes a little bit longer to assess how safe the manouver is. Maybe they were just a bit spooked.
I can understand a flash a bit more in those circumstances than the full beam in your rear mirror if you dare overtake in safe daytime circumstances!
I must admit though it is more difficult to judge closing distances in the dark. If I see a car overtaking and approaching in my lane at night I do usually let off the throttle a bit as it takes a little bit longer to assess how safe the manouver is. Maybe they were just a bit spooked.
I can understand a flash a bit more in those circumstances than the full beam in your rear mirror if you dare overtake in safe daytime circumstances!
I really wouldn't worry too much about it if you performed the manoeuvre safely with a reasonable margin of error.
-I've had oncoming cars flash their lights from 100s of metres away when overtaking on a looooong straight. In these situations I was happy to perform the pass, but the other people presumably wanted to alert me to their presence, felt uncomfortable, or maybe they're just angry.
Don't take it as an affront.
If you are asking here, though, I suspect that you are doubting whether the manoeuvre was sufficiently far from the limit of visibility.
The other situation is an objection to being overtaken.
I often overtake slower moving vehicles, but don't take risks with short limits of visibility -If something could come around the corner/over the brow, then could do so just as you're mid-overtake. If it does, the outcome could be terrible for all involved.
Of course, most people don't respond in a negative way to being overtaken, but a minority of people, often middle-aged/elderly men, do seem to object to people overtaking them, in situations where/when doing so does not affect them.
If somebody is happy to travel at X mph (or follow vehicles at said speed), then why should they be concerned if somebody travelling at X + Y mph chooses to pass them?
Edit: I do appreciate that many drivers are a bit nervous and don't look very far ahead/beyond the next 'hazard', so possibly don't realise that an overtake is possible/sensible. The same situation does arise on straight, clear roads though.
-I've had oncoming cars flash their lights from 100s of metres away when overtaking on a looooong straight. In these situations I was happy to perform the pass, but the other people presumably wanted to alert me to their presence, felt uncomfortable, or maybe they're just angry.
Don't take it as an affront.
If you are asking here, though, I suspect that you are doubting whether the manoeuvre was sufficiently far from the limit of visibility.
The other situation is an objection to being overtaken.
I often overtake slower moving vehicles, but don't take risks with short limits of visibility -If something could come around the corner/over the brow, then could do so just as you're mid-overtake. If it does, the outcome could be terrible for all involved.
Of course, most people don't respond in a negative way to being overtaken, but a minority of people, often middle-aged/elderly men, do seem to object to people overtaking them, in situations where/when doing so does not affect them.
If somebody is happy to travel at X mph (or follow vehicles at said speed), then why should they be concerned if somebody travelling at X + Y mph chooses to pass them?
Edit: I do appreciate that many drivers are a bit nervous and don't look very far ahead/beyond the next 'hazard', so possibly don't realise that an overtake is possible/sensible. The same situation does arise on straight, clear roads though.
Edited by MC Bodge on Monday 12th November 11:07
That's the first question I ask when deciding if it's safe - if I'm alongside and an oncoming car appears, or the overtakee decides not to play nicely, can I complete? If the answer is no or maybe not, I'll wait.
Perhaps he/she was just making sure I saw them. Didn't work though, I was temporarily dazzled.
As for waving back, not this time but I'll remember that.
Perhaps he/she was just making sure I saw them. Didn't work though, I was temporarily dazzled.
As for waving back, not this time but I'll remember that.
I have a 22 mile B road commute back from work, and now that it's getting dark earlier, and drivers with, i persume, poor eyesight seem to be unable to exceed 30mph (the other day, i had to do 6.5miles in 3rd, as that was the highest gear my stupid autobox would let me have the speed was so slow!), and generally brake everytime something comes the otherway. And of course, there are about 20 people, all nose to arse, so close to each other they can't see anything and spend the whole time braking and shunting up and down speeds. Well, tonight, for the first time, i was only 3 cars back from the dawdler. So, nice long, clear stetch of road, check mirrors, move to fully right, double check no one in front of me wanted to overtake too (plenty of time, we were only doing 28mph in a 60). No one moves, so i re-signal, accelerate in 4th and glide past the 4 cars.
And each and everyone of them flashes me multiple times as i pass them....................
Perhaps next time when i come up behind them i should start flashing them to say "get out of my way slow person" instead of just hanging back a decent distance so i can see past them and not being to brake every 50yards when they end up shuffling into each other??
So as far as i can tell, it seems to be acceptable and quite safe to tailgate each other and leave oneself exactly zero reaction distance, but not to overtake (well under the legal limit, no oncoming cars) to gain some clear road? Or perhaps it's the "queing" mentality, and i was "que jumping" somehow??
And each and everyone of them flashes me multiple times as i pass them....................
Perhaps next time when i come up behind them i should start flashing them to say "get out of my way slow person" instead of just hanging back a decent distance so i can see past them and not being to brake every 50yards when they end up shuffling into each other??
So as far as i can tell, it seems to be acceptable and quite safe to tailgate each other and leave oneself exactly zero reaction distance, but not to overtake (well under the legal limit, no oncoming cars) to gain some clear road? Or perhaps it's the "queing" mentality, and i was "que jumping" somehow??
Edited by anonymous-user on Monday 12th November 19:20
goneape said:
I gave the Smart good clearance and pulled back to the left as the impending RH bend was approaching. I had both offside wheels just over the centre line as an oncoming car appeared around the bend.
Obviously I wasn't there and didn't witness the act but the way this is worded makes it sound to me like you did not leave sufficient safety margin.IMHO you should have enough margin so that even if a car appears coming the other way over the speed limit at the exact moment you commit to the overtake and the car being overtaken speeds up then there is still several hundred metres of margin. If this is not the case then I would say that the other drivers around have good reason to be alarmed/annoyed.
chris182 said:
IMHO you should have enough margin so that even if a car appears coming the other way over the speed limit at the exact moment you commit to the overtake and the car being overtaken speeds up then there is still several hundred metres of margin. If this is not the case then I would say that the other drivers around have good reason to be alarmed/annoyed.
That may be a little excessive.Do I assume that you are one of those people who sits in a column of vehicles behind a tractor for miles and miles?
MC Bodge said:
chris182 said:
IMHO you should have enough margin so that even if a car appears coming the other way over the speed limit at the exact moment you commit to the overtake and the car being overtaken speeds up then there is still several hundred metres of margin. If this is not the case then I would say that the other drivers around have good reason to be alarmed/annoyed.
That may be a little excessive.Do I assume that you are one of those people who sits in a column of vehicles behind a tractor for miles and miles?
Several hundred metres is probably the wrong way of putting it, several seconds is more accurate. The point I am trying to get at is there should be absolutely no element of risk whatsoever before an overtake is attempted. If there is any possibility, however small, that you might hit someone coming the other way then the overtake is misjudged and should rightly cause others to be annoyed.
I am not saying the OPs overtake was misjudged just that the wording of the description made it sound like it might be IMO.
chris182 said:
No, because overtaking a tractor takes hardly any time or distance at all in an even vaguely fast car. I overtake at every opportunity where safe and where it will actually allow me to progress (i.e. not in an endless queue of rush hour traffic).
Several hundred metres is probably the wrong way of putting it, several seconds is more accurate. The point I am trying to get at is there should be absolutely no element of risk whatsoever before an overtake is attempted. If there is any possibility, however small, that you might hit someone coming the other way then the overtake is misjudged and should rightly cause others to be annoyed.
I am not saying the OPs overtake was misjudged just that the wording of the description made it sound like it might be IMO.
There is always risk in an overtake. It's merely that for any scenario, there is a (sub)set of risks that can be reasonably anticipated, and a threshold at which the probability of those risks occcuring becomes unacceptably high.Several hundred metres is probably the wrong way of putting it, several seconds is more accurate. The point I am trying to get at is there should be absolutely no element of risk whatsoever before an overtake is attempted. If there is any possibility, however small, that you might hit someone coming the other way then the overtake is misjudged and should rightly cause others to be annoyed.
I am not saying the OPs overtake was misjudged just that the wording of the description made it sound like it might be IMO.
You could perform an apparently identical overtake hundreds of thousands of times quite safely, then the next time a stolen car appears doing 180mph and you all die from horrible manglement. It was always a risk.
Edited by trashbat on Tuesday 13th November 14:35
trashbat said:
You could perform an apparently identical overtake hundreds of thousands of times quite safely, then the next time a stolen car appears doing 180mph and you all die from horrible manglement. It was always a risk.
There's a risk you could be struck by lightening walking out of your front door! Edited by trashbat on Tuesday 13th November 14:35
You could be driving down a road on your own at 30mph under the speed limit and a stolen car appears at 180mph and you all die from a horrible manglement (nice word!).
There's risk in everything, good overtaking minimises that risk to little more than driving down an empty road.
Big E 118 said:
There's a risk you could be struck by lightening walking out of your front door!
You could be driving down a road on your own at 30mph under the speed limit and a stolen car appears at 180mph and you all die from a horrible manglement (nice word!).
There's risk in everything, good overtaking minimises that risk to little more than driving down an empty road.
Indeed! I like this phrase.You could be driving down a road on your own at 30mph under the speed limit and a stolen car appears at 180mph and you all die from a horrible manglement (nice word!).
There's risk in everything, good overtaking minimises that risk to little more than driving down an empty road.
I'm only getting at Chris' point about risk, and we may well behave in the same way despite how we describe it.
Let's imagine a scenario of a common or garden overtake opportunity on a straight road, no junctions, with a left hand bend ahead. The likely outcome is the car I wanted to overtake not changing speed and the likely risk is an oncoming car appearing, travelling at approximately the speed limit and not slowing. Therefore the risk I'd be managing would be largely about whether I could complete my overtake sufficiently before I troubled either of the other vehicles, one real and one imaginary for now.
Possible but less likely risks are
- the overtake target speeding up
- the oncoming car going at a much higher speed
- something else entering the road
- mechanical failure
- asteroids
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