Multiple car overtakes

[Benrad]

I was under the impression that you should only ever overtake if there is only one car infront of you, overtaking more than one could mean that a car infront may also move out to overtake without checking mirrors and you would hit them. I'm talking about single carriageways obviously. I've seen a few vids on here with people doing this manoeuvre without anybody picking them up on it?

I ask because I graduate from uni next summer and plan to do IAM once I'm settled into my new job.

[johnao]

Benrad said:

I was under the impression that you should only ever overtake if there is only one car infront of you, overtaking more than one could mean that a car infront may also move out to overtake without checking mirrors and you would hit them. I'm talking about single carriageways obviously. I've seen a few vids on here with people doing this manoeuvre without anybody picking them up on it?

I ask because I graduate from uni next summer and plan to do IAM once I'm settled into my new job.

There are no rules!

You have to apply the following principle and ask yourself these three questions... Is it SAFE, is it LEGAL and do I gain an ADVANTAGE. If the answer to each of the three questions, and only you can answer these questions at the time each and every situation is presented to you, is yes, then why wouldn't you do it?

The problem with the "rule" approach is that if you accept that the rule is to never do a multiple overtake then you will inevitably be presented with a situation where a multiple overtake is safe, legal and gives you an advantage and you will then start an internal debate about whether to overtake or not, because the "rule" says you mustn't, and before you know where you are you have either missed the overtake or taken so long to make up your mind that you start the overtake too late and turn what had been a potentially safe overtake in to one that is unsafe.

Hope that helps.

[Benrad]

OK, I like that three question approach, sounds like a brilliant 'if you could summarise advanced driving in 30 words...', but consider this: is there ever a situation where it IS safe to overtake multiple cars at once given that there will always be an increased risk of them deciding to overtake and that they may not check their mirror?

So you know, obviously I won't be now making overtakes like that based on your advise and I hope you agree that it would be stupid of me to do so!! I just thought that perhaps it was a risk that others hadn't identified and would be interested in considering or that they may have a specific reason for discounting.

[7db]

You need to think of each overtake as a separate pass -- ensure there's a landing spot, ensure the target is stable, ensure you can pass safely, reassess vision and the chance of oncomers.

All in all it's hard to get past many unless they are quite cooperative and the planets align. The declined overtake is an advanced driving manoeuvre.

[Benrad]

So in your opinion there needs to be a space between each driver that I could pull into? I can see how that would in general make it safer, I like it thanks guys

[7db]

Not necessarily between each car -- but you need to be able to commit to the double pass if there isn't a landing spot in front of the first (and be prepared for it to mysteriously close up).

As ever -- being boldly positioned prior to commitment will give you much more information on which to base your commitment.

[Benrad]

I hadn't considered that. When cycling I often use eye contact before committing to any kind of interaction, even proceeding around a roundabout because at the end of the day it's me that gets hurt.

The car equivalent would be position slightly to the right to indicate my intentions, judge reaction of car(s) infront. Indicate during overtake. Perhaps switch headlights on to make me more visible and even a short toot on the horn to make them aware of my presence?

[trashbat]

Good driving, and indeed cycling, is about planning and anticipation. Advanced driving just tries to make this systematic. Next time you think a multi-car overtake could be a possibility, follow and observe for a while, and assess the likelihood of what you describe: namely, a tailing car pulling out to perform its own overtake.

What might be possible indicators of this happening?

What might be a good indicator of it NOT happening, i.e. that said car is going to stay following behind?

[MC Bodge]

I wonder how likely it is for this multiple-car-overtake situation to occur on an IAM test?

Especially so considering that it is taboo to exceed the posted speed limit, which is increasingly likely to be 50mph or even 40mph on a rural A or B road.

FWIW, I once did a magnificent 10 car overtake along Rannoch Moor at night in a mighty Hyundai Accent 1.3. Thankfully no stags decided to run across the road. These days I might be a little more cautious, having seen very large Red Deer Stags at the side of said road.

Edited by MC Bodge on Wednesday 24th October 12:38

[Benrad]

Observing and looking for indicators one way or another is a great idea. I'll do that rather than contemplating an overtake next time.

I wasn't concerned with passing an IAM test, I'm miles away from that, I just wanted to get into good habits and improve my driving in the mean time

[trashbat]

It's not impossible. I got in a single car overtake on my test. Then given the typical propensity for 40mph driving in some NSL zones, and also a general lack of propensity for overtaking in the UK, it seems like it might happen fairly often.

[MC Bodge]

trashbat said:

It's not impossible. I got in a single car overtake on my test. Then given the typical propensity for 40mph driving in some NSL zones, and also a general lack of propensity for overtaking in the UK, it seems like it might happen fairly often.

I was referring to overtaking multiple vehicles in one pass.
When this occurs, maximum acceleration/minimal exposure to danger is the order of the day. It is a possibility that such a manoeuvre may take a duration of time that would result in the speed limit being exceeded.

This is obviously not acceptable.

[trashbat]

Benrad said:

Observing and looking for indicators one way or another is a great idea. I'll do that rather than contemplating an overtake next time.

I wasn't concerned with passing an IAM test, I'm miles away from that, I just wanted to get into good habits and improve my driving in the mean time

What are these indicators? I asked in order to explore what you already identify as cues, thus what you are already doing (maybe subconsciously) and what you can improve on.

I can immediately name four factors I'd be considering when assessing whether a vehicle was likely to go for an overtake. There are almost certainly more.

[trashbat]

MC Bodge said:

I was referring to overtaking multiple vehicles in one pass.
When this occurs, maximum acceleration/minimal exposure to danger is the order of the day. It is a possibility that such a manoeuvre may take a duration of time that would result in the speed limit being exceeded.

I know, and indeed - but ditto any overtake, even single car. What I mean is, a lot of people do 40mph, and a lot of people will not overtake, so coming up on 2 or 3 cars doing 40mph is a realistic scenario for test, and depending on context, would produce an expectation of progress being made.

I won't comment on what an examiner is actually likely to think about overtaking speed.

[Benrad]

I'd look at road position in terms of left right and separation distance to the car infront. I'd suggest hanging right or close implies that the driver is trying to bully the way past and may consider a rash overtake, or that the person in front may do a brake check. Large separation distance but hanging right would indicate that they may wish to overtake properly but are likely to do a mirror check first because they're driving properly.

Obviously direction indicators as in the flashing orange things!!

Has there been a gap they could have overtaken in yet (bearing in mind the type of vehicle they're driving) if there has and there was no overtake then that suggests they won't.

How am I doing? I'm really new to this way of looking at it so please rip me to shreds. It's the only way I'll learn

[MC Bodge]

trashbat said:

ndeed - but ditto any overtake, even single car. What I mean is, a lot of people do 40mph, and a lot of people will not overtake, so coming up on 2 or 3 cars doing 40mph is a realistic scenario for test, and depending on context, would produce an expectation of progress being made.

I won't comment on what an examiner is actually likely to think about overtaking speed.

I take your point.

Many's the time I've hung back, observed well ahead along a twisty, hill country road and smoothly (and satisfyingly...) passed multiple slow-moving vehicles under deceleration into a bend/through a series of bends. This obviously doesn't require excessive speed or power. I'm not sure what the IAM view would be regarding such manoeuvres, requiring "off-siding" as they do.

Edited by MC Bodge on Wednesday 24th October 14:45

[trashbat]

Benrad said:

I'd look at road position in terms of left right and separation distance to the car infront. I'd suggest hanging right or close implies that the driver is trying to bully the way past and may consider a rash overtake, or that the person in front may do a brake check. Large separation distance but hanging right would indicate that they may wish to overtake properly but are likely to do a mirror check first because they're driving properly.

Obviously direction indicators as in the flashing orange things!!

Has there been a gap they could have overtaken in yet (bearing in mind the type of vehicle they're driving) if there has and there was no overtake then that suggests they won't.

How am I doing? I'm really new to this way of looking at it so please rip me to shreds. It's the only way I'll learn

Sounds good.

Ones I thought of were:

• following distance - you're meant to close the gap just before the overtake; equally hanging back a long way may express willingness to accommodate a leapfrog

• road positioning - obviously hanging out to or regularly moving to the offside for a look means it's likely going to be on soon

• prior closing speed/behaviour - did you see them rapidly approach the car in front and have to slow from their prior speed?

• vehicle class/nature - as an obvious example, an HGV is relatively unlikely to pass another HGV on a single carriageway. You might go further and expect a Honda Jazz with a hat on the parcel shelf to not make overtakes, whereas a performance car is more likely looking to go. Your call!

• elapsed time - have they passed up good overtaking opportunities and shown no willingness to go?

You have most if not all of these - good!

Never assume, but you can allow the above to inform your decision making.

[Benrad]

Prior closing speed, missed that and it's a biggie, can see how useful it is. Still it means I'll remember it from now on!

Thanks for your help, I really enjoy chatting about this kind of stuff with like minded people. Can't wait to join a club once I'm settled after graduation!

[MC Bodge]

Onr thing to remember about overtaking:

The party line is that one should move to the offside and then begin accelerating.

This is great in a very fast car or on a motorbike that can provide instant hard acceleration. In a 'normal' car this is less practical, but you need to be aware that accelerating behind the overtakee and then abandoning an overtake could result in a collision.

Edited by MC Bodge on Wednesday 24th October 13:02

[MC Bodge]

trashbat said:

• vehicle class/nature - as an obvious example, an HGV is relatively unlikely to pass another HGV on a single carriageway. You might go further and expect a Honda Jazz with a hat on the parcel shelf to not make overtakes, whereas a performance car is more likely looking to go. Your call!

.....Never assume, but you can allow the above to inform your decision making.

Who's to say that the Jazz isn't being driven by somebody other than the Senior Citizen owner?