Motorway overtaking
Discussion
So, I have a question regarding overtaking on the motorway.
I was driving to work on Saturday in the left lane and started catching up to traffic, so me and the car in front pulled into the middle lane.
The traffic in the lane was spread out, but it was busy.
When the car in front overtook a car, it then pulled back into the left lane, then had to pull straight back out again to overtake then next one, etc....
This happend for a while.
I just stayed in the middle lane till I had passed the traffic. During this time no other cars were behind or overtook in the right lane.
Which is the better way? Changing lanes all the time? or sit in the middle lane?
I was driving to work on Saturday in the left lane and started catching up to traffic, so me and the car in front pulled into the middle lane.
The traffic in the lane was spread out, but it was busy.
When the car in front overtook a car, it then pulled back into the left lane, then had to pull straight back out again to overtake then next one, etc....
This happend for a while.
I just stayed in the middle lane till I had passed the traffic. During this time no other cars were behind or overtook in the right lane.
Which is the better way? Changing lanes all the time? or sit in the middle lane?
Not harming anyone, no problem.
However, is it harming anyone? Should you pull in to maintain 'return to left' etiquette? Is it setting a bad example, might it be subconsciously reaffirming the apparent popular belief that the middle lane is he place to be? Possibly.
I'd say if there's plenty of room to return to L1, then do it.
Obviously if you're overtaking for 10 seconds then returning to L1 dor 2 seconds ad nauseam then stay in L2 if it's no trouble, but I think we're in danger of losing all lane discipline on our roads soon, and PH should be at the forefront of the fight to reclaim it
However, is it harming anyone? Should you pull in to maintain 'return to left' etiquette? Is it setting a bad example, might it be subconsciously reaffirming the apparent popular belief that the middle lane is he place to be? Possibly.
I'd say if there's plenty of room to return to L1, then do it.
Obviously if you're overtaking for 10 seconds then returning to L1 dor 2 seconds ad nauseam then stay in L2 if it's no trouble, but I think we're in danger of losing all lane discipline on our roads soon, and PH should be at the forefront of the fight to reclaim it
Interestingly, I've noticed that in Germany there are a lot of obsessive 'keep right' drivers, although many of these drivers appear to then be switching lanes very frequently. I'd argue that staying closer to the hard shoulder is the ideal, but constantly swinging in and out is not.
Off-topic:
The lane discipline is generally better than in the UK, although tail-gating is rife on the more urban autobahns. There seems to be opposition to people (or maybe just foreigners/Brits!) travelling at the same speed as the column of cars in front, but not tailgating. On a few occasions I've experienced people flashing me to move over when I'm travelling at 2-3 seconds behind a long column of cars passing an HGV or the like. (One chap pulled alongside to make a rude gesture. The cars flashing have been similar mid-sized, mid-powered cars to my own, not uber-saloons or supercars. When the obstructions have cleared and I've put pedal-to-metal they've either dropped back or just about hung-on behind, even when I've moved over....). Interestingly the uber-saloons don't arrive any quicker than the 2.0 diesel estates due to traffic.
Back on topic:
It's a tricky situation.
In any country, if a column of cars in the 'faster' lane are passing a slower-moving vehicle then moving over until reaching the slower-moving vehicle only allows a bunch of tail-gaters to pass who then often prevent you from moving back out.
There's an international fallacy that tail-gating is somehow better than leaving a sensible gap so immediately moving over at all times isn't always practical.
Off-topic:
The lane discipline is generally better than in the UK, although tail-gating is rife on the more urban autobahns. There seems to be opposition to people (or maybe just foreigners/Brits!) travelling at the same speed as the column of cars in front, but not tailgating. On a few occasions I've experienced people flashing me to move over when I'm travelling at 2-3 seconds behind a long column of cars passing an HGV or the like. (One chap pulled alongside to make a rude gesture. The cars flashing have been similar mid-sized, mid-powered cars to my own, not uber-saloons or supercars. When the obstructions have cleared and I've put pedal-to-metal they've either dropped back or just about hung-on behind, even when I've moved over....). Interestingly the uber-saloons don't arrive any quicker than the 2.0 diesel estates due to traffic.
Back on topic:
It's a tricky situation.
In any country, if a column of cars in the 'faster' lane are passing a slower-moving vehicle then moving over until reaching the slower-moving vehicle only allows a bunch of tail-gaters to pass who then often prevent you from moving back out.
There's an international fallacy that tail-gating is somehow better than leaving a sensible gap so immediately moving over at all times isn't always practical.
Edited by MC Bodge on Thursday 19th July 09:24
R0G said:
Bouncing in and out is pointless and shows a lack of forward planning
In an ideal world, I would agree with you. I would dearly love it to be so but I personally err on the side of slightly excessive returning to the inside if only to encourage similar activity. It does, occasionally, work. Although, obviously there's a(n) (in)decent amount of blank-looks from people who just have no comprehension of what you're doing.MC Bodge said:
In any country, if a column of cars in the 'faster' lane are passing a slower-moving vehicle then moving over until reaching the slower-moving vehicle only allows a bunch of tail-gaters to pass who then often prevent you from moving back out.
This is very true and I've referred to it in other threads on similar subjects. However, I refuse to let it bother me because soon enough there'll be a slip road which will cause the inevitable ripple-braking. The inside lane will bunch up slower due to lower volume of traffic and you'll end up far ahead of them. Every single day on the A12.Cheers, Jim
BertBert said:
R0G said:
Bouncing in and out is pointless and shows a lack of forward planning
how does it show lack of forward planning?Personally, I think constantly changing lanes is taking unnecessary risks. If you're in the middle lane and could move back to the left lane, but will have to move back out into the middle in, say, < 10 seconds, you may as well stay in the middle until a decently long gap allows a worthwhile move back to the left lane.
I agree that constant lane changing tends to show a lack of observation/planning and can come across as an aggressive driving style.
I agree that constant lane changing tends to show a lack of observation/planning and can come across as an aggressive driving style.
ian_uk1975 said:
Personally, I think constantly changing lanes is taking unnecessary risks. If you're in the middle lane and could move back to the left lane, but will have to move back out into the middle in, say, < 10 seconds, you may as well stay in the middle until a decently long gap allows a worthwhile move back to the left lane.
I agree that constant lane changing tends to show a lack of observation/planning and can come across as an aggressive driving style.
I quite strongly disagree with the first part. Changing-lanes is not risky unless you do so without looking where you're going. However, I firmly believe that a large number of people change lanes less than they should* precisely because they lack the confidence and are scared to do so.I agree that constant lane changing tends to show a lack of observation/planning and can come across as an aggressive driving style.
- IMHO
Yes, of course if you're pulling in and then finding out that you're going to have to pull straight back out again your planning is poor and your observation is appalling but I'm not sure that's the scenario anybody is describing. Yes, it may look aggressive but those who don't pull in weren't going to anyway and if you encourage a few of the faint of heart to move over, when they should but otherwise wouldn't because they're nervous, all the better.
Besides my main reason for doing this is that the A12 every morning (and, indeed afternoon) features an outside lane that is just a big queue overtaking the occasional truck on the inside and I don't like being nose to tail with a load of people whose reactions I can't vouch for. I'm more than happy to spend all journey pulling in for 10s and sitting next to the space I would have been in but having a braking distance in front of me instead of the scenario where the bloke six cars up breathes on his brake pedal and the bloke directly in front stamps on his. I'm not sure that can be described as poor-planning.
Cheers, Jim
Disclaimer; I appreciate it's difficult to generalise for infinitely variable scenarios.
ian_uk1975 said:
Personally, I think constantly changing lanes is taking unnecessary risks. If you're in the middle lane and could move back to the left lane, but will have to move back out into the middle in, say, < 10 seconds, you may as well stay in the middle until a decently long gap allows a worthwhile move back to the left lane.
I agree that constant lane changing tends to show a lack of observation/planning and can come across as an aggressive driving style.
Maybe but staying in the same lane when there is a long or longish gap can come across as a lazy or selfish driver, I make a point of obseving what is hapening behind me ,and act acordingly So a faster driver than me who pulls in behind back to the left after overtaking if I catch up and need to overtake a slower vehicle will try to let the car behind overtake me first sometimes by slowing slightly rather than pulling out so they need to over take both me and the slower vehicle, if the other driver is just middle laning I will pull out sooner as often these are the sort of pricks that will box you in ... I agree that constant lane changing tends to show a lack of observation/planning and can come across as an aggressive driving style.
Edited by powerstroke on Friday 20th July 21:30
If pulling over gives space for a faster car to overtake then do so. The problem is not all drivers will get on with it and pass before you need to be out again.
I tend to treat overtaking on a multi-lane road almost like normal overtake only it is the traffic catching rather than heading towards you need to be back to the left to avoid. There is always the option to accelerate to complete the overtake in the space available, unfortunately many drivers seem to actually slow gradually as they pass then pick up speed when you then try to pass them.
I tend to treat overtaking on a multi-lane road almost like normal overtake only it is the traffic catching rather than heading towards you need to be back to the left to avoid. There is always the option to accelerate to complete the overtake in the space available, unfortunately many drivers seem to actually slow gradually as they pass then pick up speed when you then try to pass them.
jimmy the hat said:
I quite strongly disagree with the first part. Changing-lanes is not risky unless you do so without looking where you're going. However, I firmly believe that a large number of people change lanes less than they should* precisely because they lack the confidence and are scared to do so.
Yes, of course if you're pulling in and then finding out that you're going to have to pull straight back out again your planning is poor and your observation is appalling but I'm not sure that's the scenario anybody is describing. Yes, it may look aggressive but those who don't pull in weren't going to anyway and if you encourage a few of the faint of heart to move over, when they should but otherwise wouldn't because they're nervous, all the better.
Besides my main reason for doing this is that the A12 every morning (and, indeed afternoon) features an outside lane that is just a big queue overtaking the occasional truck on the inside and I don't like being nose to tail with a load of people whose reactions I can't vouch for. I'm more than happy to spend all journey pulling in for 10s and sitting next to the space I would have been in but having a braking distance in front of me instead of the scenario where the bloke six cars up breathes on his brake pedal and the bloke directly in front stamps on his. I'm not sure that can be described as poor-planning.
Cheers, Jim
Disclaimer; I appreciate it's difficult to generalise for infinitely variable scenarios.
When I said changing lanes is risky, I was saying that in the context that everything we do carries a certain risk since there are unknown variables which we can't always account for. When changing lanes, you can't control another driver in the right lane not paying attention and moving into the space you're moving into at the same time, for example. Also, I wonder how many of us (hand on heart) always check our blind spots each and everytime we change lanes. Maybe we think we don't need to check blind spots because we've been diligently looking in our mirrors and keeping track of the vehicles around us. But, we're all falible and can all be distracted/influenced by our environment (pilots call it 'human factors'). That's where I was coming from when I said changing lanes can be risky. Also, if a driver changes lanes habitually (even for the smallest of timeframes spent in the target lane), it would be easy to become complacent which further increases the risk.- IMHO
Yes, of course if you're pulling in and then finding out that you're going to have to pull straight back out again your planning is poor and your observation is appalling but I'm not sure that's the scenario anybody is describing. Yes, it may look aggressive but those who don't pull in weren't going to anyway and if you encourage a few of the faint of heart to move over, when they should but otherwise wouldn't because they're nervous, all the better.
Besides my main reason for doing this is that the A12 every morning (and, indeed afternoon) features an outside lane that is just a big queue overtaking the occasional truck on the inside and I don't like being nose to tail with a load of people whose reactions I can't vouch for. I'm more than happy to spend all journey pulling in for 10s and sitting next to the space I would have been in but having a braking distance in front of me instead of the scenario where the bloke six cars up breathes on his brake pedal and the bloke directly in front stamps on his. I'm not sure that can be described as poor-planning.
Cheers, Jim
Disclaimer; I appreciate it's difficult to generalise for infinitely variable scenarios.
Yep, it's tough to generalise these things... the OP was describing a case where the other driver was overtaking, then moving back to the left lane, then moving straight back out to overtake the next car, etc. This sounds like constant lane swapping, which I think most of us would agree is not a great idea.
My 10-second idea isn't a regimented rule that I stick to as it does depend on weight of traffic and if any cars are approaching from behind, etc.
In your personal experiences on the A12, I can see what you're saying and I'd probably do the same, but then you risk being boxed-in between 2 lorries at the first sign of a gradient. All swings and roundabouts and judgment calls that have to be made weighing-up all the variables at the time.
What we all hate (and which we're sadly not going to fix by debating it) is drivers who have zero lane discipline and simply sit in the middle (or outside) lane for miles on end when the left lane is completely empty. I often wonder if some of these drivers truly believe the left lane is for lorries only!
Edited by ian_uk1975 on Saturday 21st July 00:26
I'd generally use 12s as a rule of thumb, being roughly the range at which I'll act based on my anticipation of my next interaction with a vehicle (is it being overtaken or overtaking?) and position accordingly.
I'll also establish myself in space if I need to do it to prevent being buried by an approaching car and manage traffic around me, and also for safety and for vision: I'd pick an offside lane if it gives me visibility when needed (rare on motorways, but sometimes extended vision is beneficial in adverse condition or with heavies / unpredictable vehicles around).
I'll also establish myself in space if I need to do it to prevent being buried by an approaching car and manage traffic around me, and also for safety and for vision: I'd pick an offside lane if it gives me visibility when needed (rare on motorways, but sometimes extended vision is beneficial in adverse condition or with heavies / unpredictable vehicles around).
simoid said:
7db said:
I'll also establish myself in space if I need to do it to prevent being buried by an approaching car and manage traffic around me...
One man's space establishment is another man's lane-hogger... 
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