Mental attitude

[ian_uk1975]

First time posting in this particular forum... hoping there's a generally more considered and mature approach in here compared with some of the other PH fora

How many of you feel that mental attitude plays a huge part in accidents and episodes of appalling driving? The following events could all be considered as careless driving (and liable to incite a reactionary reponse)...

1. When approaching a T-junction with a side road whilst in a queue of traffic, focusing on closing the gap with the car in front to a dangerous degree specifically to prevent driver's giving way on the side road from joining the queue (or, 'cutting-in', as some drivers sitting in the queue of traffic would perceive it). I've seen this loads of times and you can clearly see some drivers obviously speeding-up to close the gap to the car in front as they approach the side road.

2. Signalling the desire to overtake through intimidation tactics... namely, tailgating.

3. Expressing frustration at slow-moving traffic on the motorway by constantly weaving in and out and aggressive lane-changing.

4. Tailgating in temporary speed limit areas (primarily road works covered by SPECS). Been a victim of this several times in the M1 roadworks between Luton and the M25, even when I've been unable to move over.

5. Failure to indicate on roundabouts. We were all taught to drive using proper use of indicators, but I can only assume the huge number of drivers that refuse to indicate on roundabouts are doing so simply because they can't be bothered and think it unnecessary.

What do you guys think?

[timbob]

Mental attitude works both ways - many people on the road have entirely the wrong one, but accidents and incidents can be avoided if other people adopt the right one.

I think a lot of people don't bother to think when they're driving. Driving to them is an inconvenient but necessary part of getting from A to B, and they want to get it done with with the least effort possible.

This will mean not indicating, using the easiest (as opposed to correct) lanes, cutting people up if it means they don't have to go around the roundabout again, barging into a queue if it means they'll get there quicker, regardless of the effect on other road users... 9 times out of 10 not done through spite or malice, but through laziness.

As they're not "doing it deliberately", any reactionary response is likely to be greeted with hostility as "I've done nuffink wrong innit".

Recognising this and realising that a lot of people on the road just simply can't be bothered to drive properly but aren't necessarily doing it maliciously, then taking the steps to adjust my mental attitude to let them get on with it, not let it wind me up, and not to get defensive about my "spot" on the road has been the single best thing I ever did with my driving.

I think most incidents can be avoided if the "wronged" person just let the lazy oaf get on with it, rather than try to teach them a lesson or get revenge.

IMO

Edited by timbob on Thursday 14th June 13:28

[R0G]

When people learn to drive their concentration levels are high but after they pass the basic test they relax and nothings happens so they relax more and still nothing happens which ends up with over relaxed unconcentrating (perhaps lazy) drivers on the roads

If something happened to them virtually every time when they did not concentrate then things would change but that is not the reality

[Synchromesh]

I think the GDE matrix highlights the issue quite well. Someone can possess the car control of a god, but their life values and journey context may hinder them from becoming as safe a driver as they could be.

The L-test tends to focus on the first level, vehicle control while, classically, advanced driving courses are based around the 'driving in traffic' level.

You've also got to consider, how much of the higher two levels can be taught, and how much is part of one's personality.

If someone decides to take an AD course, does that demonstrate anything about their 'goals for life and skills for living', as opposed to someone who dismisses the idea of self improvement in their driving?

Apologies as I've probably given more questions that answers.

[kaf]

Synchromesh said:

The L-test tends to focus on the first level, .

It does, because the others are hard to test.

Many ADI's though will focus on the higher levels, the problem is that these attitudes are FAR more influenced by family and friends over 17+ years of life than by an ADI in 40 hours.

Most drivers are well capable of driving well.....................they just do not chose to do so as it takes more effort than they are prepared to expend.

Mental attitude is a vital component in road safety, but one that few drivers see as relevant, they all think they are so good that they can cope. This includes a (significant?) proportion of those who like to be considered AD.

[jimmy the hat]

R0G said:

When people learn to drive their concentration levels are high but after they pass the basic test they relax and nothings happens so they relax more and still nothing happens which ends up with over relaxed unconcentrating (perhaps lazy) drivers on the roads

If something happened to them virtually every time when they did not concentrate then things would change but that is not the reality

Absolutely. Also, a large number will simply close their eyes, stick their fingers in their ears and "nah, nah, nah" (figuratively) any hazard that they weren't specifically instucted to deal with. If they get away with it, it becomes their default manner of dealing with it to the extent that it becomes "right" and woe-betide anybody who disagrees.

timbob said:

Stuff

Certainly true to an extent but I'm afraid that there really some genuinely nasty and selfish people out there who don't care enough about whether they're in the wrong to even consider it in the first place. Spot on about adapting ones own driving to suit, though. After all, if they don't care, you're the only one that's being adversely affected.

ian_uk1975 said:

First time posting in this particular forum... hoping there's a generally more considered and mature approach in here compared with some of the other PH fora

I've not been on here long but have already recognised that there's a decent number who are more concerned with dogma and rules than common-sense and the flexibility to apply that to infinitely variable situations. Which, you'd sort of think was the fundamental point of advanced driving.

ian_uk1975 said:

4. Tailgating in temporary speed limit areas (primarily road works covered by SPECS). Been a victim of this several times in the M1 roadworks between Luton and the M25, even when I've been unable to move over.

Many, many, many people do not understand the meaning of the word "average" in this context. This is the worst stretch of road that I've seen for people anchoring up for the cameras, only to tear off again. Simply incredible.

ian_uk1975 said:

5. Failure to indicate on roundabouts. We were all taught to drive using proper use of indicators, but I can only assume the huge number of drivers that refuse to indicate on roundabouts are doing so simply because they can't be bothered and think it unnecessary.

There's a (quite boring) argument about use of roundabouts on this very page which frankly highlights why this is. If "advanced drivers" can't agree on how to use a roundabout then how is your "average Joe" supposed to navigate their way across, say the Magic Rondabout in Hemel for example? Eyes shut, fingers in ears, "nah, nah, nah". Get away with it, keep doing it, someone actually does it right because they actually know what they're doing and you hoot them and get all indignant and unnecessary.

Cheers, Jim

[R0G]

I have the solution .......

..... every driver must read the book MIND DRIVING every day ......

Hmmmm ....

[WhoseGeneration]

R0G said:

I have the solution .......

..... every driver must read the book MIND DRIVING every day ......

Hmmmm ....

Yup and there's a whole problem there.
Which is to deny the basis of Human psychology and that which we are taught as to how to achieve in our world. That is competition.

Eta, ES drivers live in a world of competition, known as response times.

Edited by WhoseGeneration on Friday 15th June 02:39

[kaf]

WhoseGeneration said:

Eta, ES drivers live in a world of competition, known as response times.

Edited by WhoseGeneration on Friday 15th June 02:39

I have never met an ES driver who has any interest in response times whatsoever.

Managers have it as a 'performance measure' the drivers themselves have a whole different set of priorities.

[ian_uk1975]

Forgive my ignorance, but what is an ES driver? Emergency Services per chance?

[Toltec]

As Timbob writes above, not taking the actions of other drivers personally is a key mental shift.

The competitive instinct is also interesting, this may be contentious but I think you can be without being unsafe. If you are observing and thinking far enough ahead you can gain advantage without putting anyone at risk. If you are subtle enough other drivers may not even notice what you did. You are not directly competing against other drivers as such simply making better use of the resources available.

[ian_uk1975]

Toltec said:

As Timbob writes above, not taking the actions of other drivers personally is a key mental shift.

The competitive instinct is also interesting, this may be contentious but I think you can be without being unsafe. If you are observing and thinking far enough ahead you can gain advantage without putting anyone at risk. If you are subtle enough other drivers may not even notice what you did. You are not directly competing against other drivers as such simply making better use of the resources available.

The competitive instinct point is certainly an interesting one... it seems many drivers are somewhat obsessed with getting from A-to-B as quickly as possible, using every trick in the book to shorten their journey time. This would be unstandable if they were running up against time for an apointment or plane/train, etc, but many drivers still behave this way when there's no reason to. From a road safety perspective, this certainly has in impact... how many of us have witnessed someone perform a crazy overtake only to see the same car stuck at a red light or a junction 1/2 a mile or so down the road? As a consequence, I very rarely overtake on single carriageways as, in most cases, it's futile from a time-saving perspective, whilst being one of the most dangerous maneuvers.

[jimmy the hat]

ian_uk1975 said:

The competitive instinct point is certainly an interesting one... it seems many drivers are somewhat obsessed with getting from A-to-B as quickly as possible, using every trick in the book to shorten their journey time. This would be unstandable if they were running up against time for an apointment or plane/train, etc, but many drivers still behave this way when there's no reason to. From a road safety perspective, this certainly has in impact... how many of us have witnessed someone perform a crazy overtake only to see the same car stuck at a red light or a junction 1/2 a mile or so down the road? As a consequence, I very rarely overtake on single carriageways as, in most cases, it's futile from a time-saving perspective, whilst being one of the most dangerous maneuvers.

I may be misunderstanding you, but there isn't anything wrong with trying to get from A to B as quickly as possible as long as "possible" includes a caveat about safety, courtesy and consideration. Being competitive, per se, is perfectly fine as long as it's in the context of getting ahead of people as opposed to pushing them behind you if you catch my drift.

But then I'm in the camp that believes that dawdling is selfish and inconsiderate. I WILL overtake people doing 40mph in a NSL if it is at all possible (same caveat), just on principle. On occasion, I've had people say "you won't get there any quicker". My response is always "not just will, I did" I think Jasper Carrott is due credit for that one.

Cheers, Jim

[ian_uk1975]

We're on the same page Jim

Don't you just love those people who do 40 in a 30, then continue to do 40 after the NSL sign...

[red]

said:

As a consequence, I very rarely overtake on single carriageways as, in most cases, it's futile from a time-saving perspective, whilst being one of the most dangerous maneuvers.

I disagree to both the points you have raised. By its very nature it will save some time not being behind someone who may be travelling slower than you want to. As for being dangerous, only if you let it be.

[ian_uk1975]

red said:

I disagree to both the points you have raised. By its very nature it will save some time not being behind someone who may be travelling slower than you want to. As for being dangerous, only if you let it be.

Hmm, well, yes, the act of over-taking means you're travelling faster at that point in time, but the point I was trying to make is that, very often, any benefit from an overtake will be nullified further down the road by any of the following...

1. Traffic lights
2. Another slower-moving car that you cannot overtake
3. Other holds-ups (sheer weight of traffic, etc)

I'm not trying to say that overtaking is never justified, just that I rarely do it as I'm usually not in so much of a hurry that I can't wait until the slower driver has turned-off. Got nothing whatsoever against people that want to overtake, so long as they do it safely and don't take stupid risks that puts everyone in danger (which, sadly, is often the case).

As to the danger aspect, there are actually not many places it's absolutely safe to overtake on roads that a slower-moving car creates a situation where you may want to overtake (country B-roads, for example). This is another reason I rarely overtake as I simply can't see far enough ahead... you just never know what, or who, will be coming in the opposite direction. I always think what if there's a guy on a sports bike hammering along, or some other car driver doing far in excess of the speed limit.

Caveat: I overtake with more regularity when I'm driving one of my cars that has 600bhp at its disposal. This is simply because I can execute an overtake so quickly.

Edited by ian_uk1975 on Saturday 16th June 20:16

Edited by ian_uk1975 on Saturday 16th June 20:19