The Sacrificial Motorist in front
Discussion
Earlier today, I was driving, and the fog was bad. REALLY bad. At one point I couldn't even do 30mph.
But then a BMW overtook. He had his rear fog on, and I was able to follow him. At a fairly normal following distance, I wasn't able to see any lights apart from his fog light, and his brake lights. But I was going quite a lot quicker that I had been before.
Because he had volunteered to be the sacrificial motorist in front.
See, the thing is if there was anything in the way, he was gonna brake before he hit it. I could see him braking hard, and manage to stop in time myself. Even if he hit a tank or something - because the light carried through the fog far further than a non illuminated random object.
I was grateful for him risking his and his family's life to help me to make progress.
Anyway the reason I bring this up is because it is exactly the same situation at night. I dunno about you but on an unlit road for me most cars' dipped beams are barely enough to do 60mph. Yet I can safely, in my view, do three figure speeds on dual carrigeways or whatever on dips by observing how the cars in front are reacting to the road ahead.
I would like some feedback on my theory. And if you disagree with it, what is your justification for doing 70mph on dips on an unlit road?
But then a BMW overtook. He had his rear fog on, and I was able to follow him. At a fairly normal following distance, I wasn't able to see any lights apart from his fog light, and his brake lights. But I was going quite a lot quicker that I had been before.
Because he had volunteered to be the sacrificial motorist in front.
See, the thing is if there was anything in the way, he was gonna brake before he hit it. I could see him braking hard, and manage to stop in time myself. Even if he hit a tank or something - because the light carried through the fog far further than a non illuminated random object.
I was grateful for him risking his and his family's life to help me to make progress.
Anyway the reason I bring this up is because it is exactly the same situation at night. I dunno about you but on an unlit road for me most cars' dipped beams are barely enough to do 60mph. Yet I can safely, in my view, do three figure speeds on dual carrigeways or whatever on dips by observing how the cars in front are reacting to the road ahead.
I would like some feedback on my theory. And if you disagree with it, what is your justification for doing 70mph on dips on an unlit road?
Agree 100% re the fog, rather him be the accident, than me.But i dont drive within what i consider to be the '2 sec' bit Also the night driving as well,although if i lose one on a bendy road i tend to slow down until i see him again. To follow a gut on a 'nice road' at night certainly make you 'plan ahead' and not just what is infront of your bonnet
This idea works fine, right up until the point where the sacrificial motorist drives of a cliff (because he's going too fast for the conditions and didn't see the bend until it was too late) and you, in your blind trust, assume that his rapidly descending fog lamp means there's a dip in the road, and you follow him off the cliff
Somewhat foolish, I'd say.....
Somewhat foolish, I'd say.....
Cars hitting immovable objects (barriers, trees, broken down lorries) can stop almost instantly.
At least at night you can see some way into the distance to observe lights, and your inner lizard picks up on shadow, shape and shine (even in the darkness) more than most people realise.
It's no wonder we have tragedies like the M5 crash if people are so retarded.
At least at night you can see some way into the distance to observe lights, and your inner lizard picks up on shadow, shape and shine (even in the darkness) more than most people realise.
It's no wonder we have tragedies like the M5 crash if people are so retarded.
Somewhatfoolish said:
Anyway the reason I bring this up is because it is exactly the same situation at night. I dunno about you but on an unlit road for me most cars' dipped beams are barely enough to do 60mph. Yet I can safely, in my view, do three figure speeds on dual carrigeways or whatever on dips by observing how the cars in front are reacting to the road ahead.
Also helpful to use other vehicles headlights as your ownI've lost count as to the number of times I have ignored my headlights and simply used the lights of the vehicle in front providing we are in the same lane
R0G said:
Somewhatfoolish said:
Anyway the reason I bring this up is because it is exactly the same situation at night. I dunno about you but on an unlit road for me most cars' dipped beams are barely enough to do 60mph. Yet I can safely, in my view, do three figure speeds on dual carrigeways or whatever on dips by observing how the cars in front are reacting to the road ahead.
Also helpful to use other vehicles headlights as your ownI've lost count as to the number of times I have ignored my headlights and simply used the lights of the vehicle in front providing we are in the same lane
What happened to "stop in the distance you can see to be clear......" or does "and might reasonably expect to remain so" cover it?
Vaux said:
But to take it to the extreme, what happens if the exhaust falls off the vehicle in front? Or a few pallets from a lorry?
What happened to "stop in the distance you can see to be clear......" or does "and might reasonably expect to remain so" cover it?
No compromise of safety margins - just like looking ahed of vehicle on front in daylightWhat happened to "stop in the distance you can see to be clear......" or does "and might reasonably expect to remain so" cover it?
R0G said:
Vaux said:
But to take it to the extreme, what happens if the exhaust falls off the vehicle in front? Or a few pallets from a lorry?
What happened to "stop in the distance you can see to be clear......" or does "and might reasonably expect to remain so" cover it?
No compromise of safety margins - just like looking ahed of vehicle on front in daylightWhat happened to "stop in the distance you can see to be clear......" or does "and might reasonably expect to remain so" cover it?
Nigel_O said:
This idea works fine, right up until the point where the sacrificial motorist drives of a cliff (because he's going too fast for the conditions and didn't see the bend until it was too late) and you, in your blind trust, assume that his rapidly descending fog lamp means there's a dip in the road, and you follow him off the cliff
Somewhat foolish, I'd say.....
I knew the road. I should possibly have clarified that. Somewhat foolish, I'd say.....
Although, that would be a highly amusing accident to explain the next day
Edited by Somewhatfoolish on Wednesday 6th June 14:06
6fire said:
Cars hitting immovable objects (barriers, trees, broken down lorries) can stop almost instantly.
You're missing the point that I could see a fog light at a further distance than I could see other shapes. Hence my comment about him hitting a tank - even if he stopped instantly it wasn't a problem.Somewhatfoolish said:
6fire said:
Cars hitting immovable objects (barriers, trees, broken down lorries) can stop almost instantly.
You're missing the point that I could see a fog light at a further distance than I could see other shapes. Hence my comment about him hitting a tank - even if he stopped instantly it wasn't a problem.Depends on speed and visibility.
Could you have stopped well within your stopping distance for the speed, even if he stopped without brake lights and it took time for you to realise you were approaching him rapidly?
He could easily stop instantly if he hit a truck and didn't see it, eg it swapping lanes on him or oncoming vehicle breaching the Armco.
Could you have stopped well within your stopping distance for the speed, even if he stopped without brake lights and it took time for you to realise you were approaching him rapidly?
He could easily stop instantly if he hit a truck and didn't see it, eg it swapping lanes on him or oncoming vehicle breaching the Armco.
Agree with the OP upto a point. I've seen this technique mentioned in reputable advanced driving books.
However, it is a strategy to be employed only with discretion. If you have to up your speed more than a little to keep up then it may not be a good idea. Keep a comfortable stopping distance behind (more than 2 secs) - not doing this is a recipe for a pile-up.
However, it is a strategy to be employed only with discretion. If you have to up your speed more than a little to keep up then it may not be a good idea. Keep a comfortable stopping distance behind (more than 2 secs) - not doing this is a recipe for a pile-up.
In fog, I travel at the speed that I feel comfortable at, rather than hanging onto the rear lamps of another car and thus travelling at the speed THEY feel comfortable at.
It's not easy, as you know that when their rear lamps fade to nothing, you'll be back to driving "blind" (ie no "sacrificial motorist" to act as the motoring equivalent to a comfort blanket)
However, in the very rare occasions that I find myself being drawn up to another motorists speed (must be a comfort thing), I quickly realise that I'm placing my own safety in the hands of another driver, about whom I know nothing. The number of people's driving that I trust implicitly is very small (wife & two kids - all of whom I taught to drive) so I don't see why I should place my life at the hands of someone who is prepared to travel at a speed that I consider to be too quick for the conditions.
As was reminded in another thread recently - "better to be late in this life than early in the next"
It's not easy, as you know that when their rear lamps fade to nothing, you'll be back to driving "blind" (ie no "sacrificial motorist" to act as the motoring equivalent to a comfort blanket)
However, in the very rare occasions that I find myself being drawn up to another motorists speed (must be a comfort thing), I quickly realise that I'm placing my own safety in the hands of another driver, about whom I know nothing. The number of people's driving that I trust implicitly is very small (wife & two kids - all of whom I taught to drive) so I don't see why I should place my life at the hands of someone who is prepared to travel at a speed that I consider to be too quick for the conditions.
As was reminded in another thread recently - "better to be late in this life than early in the next"
I'd have backed off. Even if he was two seconds ahead and you were confident you could brake with him and maintain the gap, if he hit a van that had stopped in a road for example, you braking two seconds behind him would still end up with you crashing too. While this is an extreme example, it's not an impossibility.
Furthermore, you sticking behind him, even if he was happy to overtake you earlier is doing no one any favours. He might feel pressured by you sticking to his rear bumper, even if you are on the edge of his visibility and drive faster than is safe given what he could see. If it really was so foggy that you were driving extremely cautiously before he overtook you, I'd suggest you were probably safer before he was there. Rather than using him as a "sacrificial motorist" to have to the accident for you, and set the pace for you until this accident happens, I'd be backing off and letting him go on at his own pace before continuing at mine, so I'm making the decisions based on conditions, not just literally blindly following a light in front.
Furthermore, you sticking behind him, even if he was happy to overtake you earlier is doing no one any favours. He might feel pressured by you sticking to his rear bumper, even if you are on the edge of his visibility and drive faster than is safe given what he could see. If it really was so foggy that you were driving extremely cautiously before he overtook you, I'd suggest you were probably safer before he was there. Rather than using him as a "sacrificial motorist" to have to the accident for you, and set the pace for you until this accident happens, I'd be backing off and letting him go on at his own pace before continuing at mine, so I'm making the decisions based on conditions, not just literally blindly following a light in front.
Your idea would work OK if sacrificial BMW saw the hazard and braked before he hit it. But what happens if it catches him totally unawares? The fog would not give you such good feedback that you were suddenly gaining on his rear fog lights and your available stopping distance would be greatly reduced!
Gassing Station | Advanced Driving | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff