Observed Drive
Discussion
I had an observed drive for a couple of hours earlier. The observer is a RoSPA examiner ...but was not wearing his RoSPA hat on this occasion.
It went generally well, 'being observed' meant that I spent too much time thinking about the the rights/wrongs/"what will he want me to do?" of some of my decisions, rather than driving as I would normally do. From previous experience, that's the sort of thing that is ironed-out when you've had more sessions and a little more relaxed.
There were apparently no fundamental issues with my driving, certainly none that were raised and he was happy with my driving overall.
Some things were mentioned, and did include some of the usual suspects:
Brake-gear overlap (a no-no, "Track technique", discussed beforehand).
Steering wheel grip (pull-push for even fairly minor bends, not fixed position "Track Technique" other than for small deviations, not passing 12 o' clock when reaching up to pull the wheel for tight turns).
Putting the car into neutral at red traffic lights, but quite subjectively decided based upon potential waiting time (not necessarily convinced of need for this).
Not using 4th gear at 30mph. I was in 3rd gear to maintain the car at 30mph on a wide, slightly down-sloping, straight road. This was commented upon (as recommended to a friend who went on a speed awareness course... 4th in my fairly normal car is a little high if the car isn't going to edge up to 32-33) -I was only holding 3rd/30mph to keep him happy, but that wasn't what he wanted.
There were some other things that seemed a little like preferential things (eg. following the kerb a few inches closer around a corner, rather than my normal slightly later turn-in on a tight bend/corner that "might mislead other road users"), but they were said to be "beyond RoSPA assessment scope" anyway.
None-of the above were really related to safety or interaction with others, other than the following the kerb more closely thing, which I'm not wholly convinced by.
It was a good experience, my observer was an interesting bloke and it satisfied my curiosity. Observing every speed limit (especially those 30/40/50s that used to be NSL) at all times, as when I did my bike IAM, can feel quite tedious at times.
As there weren't any major comments, which was a good thing, some of the issues raised did seem to be more about 'rules' than anything else. I'm not sure how much I will modify my driving as a result.
I don't think I'll be taking the RoSPA course and test, although I'd recommend that everybody did do one of the 'advanced' riding or driving courses. There was some mention of IAM being of a lower standard and the lack of re-testing possibly being an issue.
ps. I did learn about where many of the popular speed trap locations are
Edit: To reduce even more long-winded post
It went generally well, 'being observed' meant that I spent too much time thinking about the the rights/wrongs/"what will he want me to do?" of some of my decisions, rather than driving as I would normally do. From previous experience, that's the sort of thing that is ironed-out when you've had more sessions and a little more relaxed.
There were apparently no fundamental issues with my driving, certainly none that were raised and he was happy with my driving overall.
Some things were mentioned, and did include some of the usual suspects:
Brake-gear overlap (a no-no, "Track technique", discussed beforehand).
Steering wheel grip (pull-push for even fairly minor bends, not fixed position "Track Technique" other than for small deviations, not passing 12 o' clock when reaching up to pull the wheel for tight turns).
Putting the car into neutral at red traffic lights, but quite subjectively decided based upon potential waiting time (not necessarily convinced of need for this).
Not using 4th gear at 30mph. I was in 3rd gear to maintain the car at 30mph on a wide, slightly down-sloping, straight road. This was commented upon (as recommended to a friend who went on a speed awareness course... 4th in my fairly normal car is a little high if the car isn't going to edge up to 32-33) -I was only holding 3rd/30mph to keep him happy, but that wasn't what he wanted.
There were some other things that seemed a little like preferential things (eg. following the kerb a few inches closer around a corner, rather than my normal slightly later turn-in on a tight bend/corner that "might mislead other road users"), but they were said to be "beyond RoSPA assessment scope" anyway.
None-of the above were really related to safety or interaction with others, other than the following the kerb more closely thing, which I'm not wholly convinced by.
It was a good experience, my observer was an interesting bloke and it satisfied my curiosity. Observing every speed limit (especially those 30/40/50s that used to be NSL) at all times, as when I did my bike IAM, can feel quite tedious at times.
As there weren't any major comments, which was a good thing, some of the issues raised did seem to be more about 'rules' than anything else. I'm not sure how much I will modify my driving as a result.
I don't think I'll be taking the RoSPA course and test, although I'd recommend that everybody did do one of the 'advanced' riding or driving courses. There was some mention of IAM being of a lower standard and the lack of re-testing possibly being an issue.
ps. I did learn about where many of the popular speed trap locations are
Edit: To reduce even more long-winded post
Edited by MC Bodge on Friday 13th April 15:27
How far do you take it, though?
To be quite honest, if I was going to spend a lot of money I'd be having a go at track/off-road driving and riding.
There's a fairly low limit to what can be done on the road with regards to vehicle handling, certainly without a discrete, nudge-nudge-wink-wink approach to speed limits and safety. Car handling and dynamics wasn't really mentioned yesterday other than one comment about cornering (force), which he admitted was carried out smoothly. It was also well within the limits of grip and in a location with plenty of visibility.
I'm not claiming to be super-dooper, but if you observe well, control the car well and interact carefully and courteously with other road users, just how much Police-style 'roadcraft' is really necessary?
I'll keep on striving to improve smoothness and observation in my driving (the most important things in my opinion, neither of which were raised as issues, although can always be improved), but I suspect that I've reached the end of the road for road driving training for the foreseeable future.
To be quite honest, if I was going to spend a lot of money I'd be having a go at track/off-road driving and riding.
There's a fairly low limit to what can be done on the road with regards to vehicle handling, certainly without a discrete, nudge-nudge-wink-wink approach to speed limits and safety. Car handling and dynamics wasn't really mentioned yesterday other than one comment about cornering (force), which he admitted was carried out smoothly. It was also well within the limits of grip and in a location with plenty of visibility.
I'm not claiming to be super-dooper, but if you observe well, control the car well and interact carefully and courteously with other road users, just how much Police-style 'roadcraft' is really necessary?
I'll keep on striving to improve smoothness and observation in my driving (the most important things in my opinion, neither of which were raised as issues, although can always be improved), but I suspect that I've reached the end of the road for road driving training for the foreseeable future.
Edited by MC Bodge on Friday 13th April 11:01
R0G said:
It can open up different views on driving if you become an observer/tutor
I'm sure it can although I'm not sure how many more views on normal road driving I need.It's not that there isn't more to learn, just that within the realms of IAM/RoSPA it is probably a case of diminishing returns and possibly just polishing the adherence to the rules -My questioning nature probably goes against me in this case. I'm not convinced that modifying my driving and achieving RoSPA Gold standard would make me, personally, any 'better' or safer as a road driver/rider, just a bit different eg. in the way I held the wheel and didn't blend my control inputs (having already done the bike IAM, read a lot and tried to implement/self-teach the driving side of it).
Volunteers offering their time to observe for IAM/RoSPA are definitely to be thanked, though. I'm sure that a lot of people would benefit from being observed -I have done in the past.
HPC gets mentioned on here. It costs a bit and I've no intention of trying to join, but it would be interesting to know how they approach driving compared with the very 'systematic', rigid, Police-based RoSPa/IAM.
Edited by MC Bodge on Friday 13th April 14:59
MC Bodge said:
How far do you take it, though?
but if you observe well, control the car well and interact carefully and courteously with other road users, just how much Police-style 'roadcraft' is really necessary?
If you observe well etc, how much limit handling knowledge is necessary?but if you observe well, control the car well and interact carefully and courteously with other road users, just how much Police-style 'roadcraft' is really necessary?
The point about advanced road training isn't so much learning new techniques, but coaching. Having a knowledgable driver point out, for example, bad habits which you've slipped into without realising.
Observing
Why is the new associate going too slow when it is safe to go faster within the speed limit?
By observing you get to understand the various resons why
That is just one small example which can get you into the minds of other drivers and in turn helps yourself become a better driver
Why is the new associate going too slow when it is safe to go faster within the speed limit?
By observing you get to understand the various resons why
That is just one small example which can get you into the minds of other drivers and in turn helps yourself become a better driver
Dr Jekyll said:
The point about advanced road training isn't so much learning new techniques, but coaching. Having a knowledgable driver point out, for example, bad habits which you've slipped into without realising.
I agree and I did suggest that everybody should try an 'advanced' course of one sort or another. My point is that some of the 'bad habits' that may not actually be necessarily that dangerous or even detrimental to travel, but may just not be in accordance with 'the rules' that are required to pass a test.
This may be news to some people, but driving can be fun. Gaining limit handling knowledge and learning to control a vehicle in low-grip, high speed situations can also be fun, hence my comment about preferring to spend lots of money on track/off-road learning rather than more road learning.
Knowing what happens at/beyond the limit can allow a driver to appreciate if/when that limit is approaching and can also be useful in the event of encountering difficult conditions. Some frowned-upon techniques can be smoother and more balanced and allowing more feel than the approved methods. It is not just about being 'faster', despite what some people like to say/think.
Certainly an awareness of (over the)limit handling is no bad thing. Look what happens to a lot of cars/drivers when e.g. it snows, the roads are icy or evasive action is required due to some unavoidable occurrence (which can happen).
MC Bodge said:
HPC gets mentioned on here. It costs a bit and I've no intention of trying to join, but it would be interesting to know how they approach driving compared with the very 'systematic', rigid, Police-based RoSPa/IAM.
Well worth spending a half-day with one of the Gatekeepers to find out, imho...Chris
The HPC gatekeepers don't appear to be very local to me.
On a note related to the observed drive of my original post:
I had reason to visit the Lake District today.
Other than whilst changing gears and for some quite tight bends/corners, I maintained a light, fixed grip on the steering wheel, with the minimum steering input and made smooth, incident-free progress along some fairly interesting roads. Arms were not crossed and if more steering lock was needed then I moved and positioned my hands accordingly.
In what possible way is maintaining good contact with the steering wheel in a modern car with high-geared, power-assisted steering rack inferior to frequently moving the hands around the wheel for a pull-push/push-pull?
I won't even bother mentioning brake-gear overlap....
On a note related to the observed drive of my original post:
I had reason to visit the Lake District today.
Other than whilst changing gears and for some quite tight bends/corners, I maintained a light, fixed grip on the steering wheel, with the minimum steering input and made smooth, incident-free progress along some fairly interesting roads. Arms were not crossed and if more steering lock was needed then I moved and positioned my hands accordingly.
In what possible way is maintaining good contact with the steering wheel in a modern car with high-geared, power-assisted steering rack inferior to frequently moving the hands around the wheel for a pull-push/push-pull?
I won't even bother mentioning brake-gear overlap....
MC Bodge said:
In what possible way is maintaining good contact with the steering wheel in a modern car with high-geared, power-assisted steering rack inferior to frequently moving the hands around the wheel for a pull-push/push-pull?
I won't even bother mentioning brake-gear overlap....
The advice I got from a former HPC gatekeeper was that pull-push is only used to avoid crossing hands or using minicab driver antics in situations where the turn is too tight to maintain continual fixed grip. With modern high geared steering, as you say, this is rarely required.I won't even bother mentioning brake-gear overlap....
I'm pretty sure HPC wouldn't have a problem with H/T if that's what you want. Providing it's done as part of a plan rather than to get yourself out of trouble because you've started braking too late.
Dr Jekyll said:
The advice I got from a former HPC gatekeeper was that pull-push is only used to avoid crossing hands or using minicab driver antics in situations where the turn is too tight to maintain continual fixed grip. With modern high geared steering, as you say, this is rarely required.
That sounds like good, common sense to me. What I struggle to understand is how a safety organisation such as RoSPA/Roadar that likes drivers to keep both hands 'on' the wheel doesn't appear go along with something as obviously a good thing as keeping both hands in contact with the wheel as much as possible. I can only assume that it is the influence of Police Roadcraft procedure and examiners, with their traditional "this is the only correct way, because the rules written on tablets handed down to Moses say so" approach. The HPC way does sound to be more in-line with my own thinking than the well-known 'advanced' organisations.
Dr Jekyll said:
I'm pretty sure HPC wouldn't have a problem with H/T if that's what you want. Providing it's done as part of a plan rather than to get yourself out of trouble because you've started braking too late.
Brake-gear overlap (with a suitable rev matching method) shouldn't be a requirement, but surely if it can be done smoothly and to maintain the car's balance in order to produce a more fluid drive, then why on Earth should not it be allowed? -although, of course, it is allowed in some cases when going downhill, so why not at other times?....MC Bodge said:
Brake-gear overlap (with a suitable rev matching method) shouldn't be a requirement, but surely if it can be done smoothly and to maintain the car's balance in order to produce a more fluid drive, then why on Earth should not it be allowed? -although, of course, it is allowed in some cases when going downhill, so why not at other times?....
My experience is that while this sounds delightful, too many people use it as a crutch for not doing everything else in a timely fashion. Or to put it another way, brake-gear overlap should be something planned and executed with as much control as a non-overlapped situation. To often it isn't...As for insisting on pull-push for everything, words fail me. I'd be more inclined to slap the wrists of a client who insisted on doing that on the road. Never has there been a better way of steering too much and in the wrong place than with pull-push.
StressedDave said:
My experience is that while this sounds delightful,
Well, I do aim for poetry in motion 
StressedDave said:
too many people use it as a crutch for not doing everything else in a timely fashion
I can understand that. I've worked at trying to use it to aid smoothness though. Much of my driving is with my family as passengers, so I'm not driving on the ragged edge or 'pressing on'. Rather, I try to give them a comfortable, happy ride whilst still maintaining a decent cross-country pace. Of course, in a different situation it lends itself to more spirited driving.Full seperation:
Brakes on -> brakes off -> change gear -> steer -> accelerate
-the weight shifts forwards, then backwards, then settles into the 'middle', then sideways, then backwards again when on a balanced throttle. Yes, it can be done smoothly, but the process is hardly 'advanced'.
Overlapping braking and changing of gears (not always, but when it might be beneficial) before smoothly coming off the brakes whilst beginning to turn smoothly into a corner reduces the unnecessary, unwanted weight transfer without the need for artificial, arbitrary separation.
The benefit of rev matching under braking is more obvious and has more of an effect whilst riding a motorbike (I wonder what the Police motorbikers do? It was never mentioned on bike IAM), but is applicable in a car.
Yes, it takes practice, but it seems worthwhile to get the hang of it.
StressedDave said:
As for insisting on pull-push for everything, words fail me.
I'm glad it's not just me then! Fixed hand position steering was referred to twice as being a "race track technique". From what I've seen, far too many drivers turn the wheel far too much. It just doesn't make sense to discount something so obviously not detrimental and, quite possibly, beneficial.
Similarly, I never once crossed my arms either, although reaching up to just beyond 12 o'clock with one hand (before pulling the hand down to around 9 o'clock) was twice referred to as "crossing your arms", which I disputed. The reason for this being wrong was given as being to prevent injury in the case of an airbag inflation. I can't imagine that the outcome would be much nicer if both hands were at the top of the wheel in that situation, though...
-I somehow suspect that this 'rule' existed long before the introduction steering wheel airbags.
I enjoy driving and try to do it well, but for the various reasons mentioned in this thread, I have no interest in trying to achieve a RoSPA Gold.
Edited by MC Bodge on Sunday 15th April 16:34
MC Bodge said:
I enjoy driving and try to do it well, but for the various reasons mentioned in this thread, I have no interest in trying to achieve a RoSPA Gold.
I have RoADAR (RoSPAs current name) Gold (it therefore can't be that hard to get, imo my driving is far from top tier in Roadcraft terms) and I agree with the points made mostlyEdited by MC Bodge on Sunday 15th April 16:34
Unless incorporated properly into a plan (and I'd expect it to be mentioned in advance in commentary), BGOL can usually taken as a negative in normal road driving
Steering. Whilst crossing arms can usually be taken as a negative in normal road driving, anything where good control is maintained and hands don't go past 12 / 6 is pretty much OK as far I can judge
The driver needs to look comfortably in control of the vehicle and the passenger(s) (whoever that might be) should feel fully confident that the driver is going to get them to the destination safely and comfortably.
JPJPJP said:
Unless incorporated properly into a plan (and I'd expect it to be mentioned in advance in commentary), BGOL can usually taken as a negative in normal road driving.
Surely it can be used, where helpful to stability and smoothness, rather than all of the time? I can't see how that is a 'negative'.JPJPJP said:
Steering. Whilst crossing arms can usually be taken as a negative in normal road driving, anything where good control is maintained and hands don't go past 12 / 6 is pretty much OK as far I can judge
...but presumably, in the upper echelons of Rospa (or possibly old-school Police) driving, the less fixed grip used and the more pull-push/push-pull shoe-horned in, whether needed or not, the more pious and worthy your roadcraftiness. JPJPJP said:
The driver needs to look comfortably in control of the vehicle and the passenger(s) (whoever that might be) should feel fully confident that the driver is going to get them to the destination safely and comfortably.
I agree ...but arbitrary 'rules' about holding the controls without any obvious reasons or benefit to safety are almost irrelevant to this.Gassing Station | Advanced Driving | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff