RoSPA Matters

[AdrianEagle]

One of the main attributes of an Advanced Driver is to make Progress and use the various speed limits one encounters to the best advantage, in safety of course. In other words, do 30 in a 30 limit, 40 in a 40, 60 in a 60 etc.

In a recent exchange of correspondence with Bob Smalley, the CHIEF EXAMINER of RoSPA Drivers and Riders, he stated that he would prefer for a driver to use a known inaccurate OEM speedometer to using an after market fitted electronic device that has been proved to be 99.9% accurate.

How on Earth can a person in such a position disregard and condemn the fitting of an accurate device over the inaccurate OEM equipment that has a different percentage of error over its whole range? Not the sort of attitude to encourage people to give the RoSPA test anything but a very wide berth! I know which I prefer and accordingly have given up my Gold RoSPA Award and my Tutor's position.

[johnao]

AdrianEagle said:

I know which I prefer and accordingly have given up my Gold RoSPA Award and my Tutor's position.

That's a shame. But, why have you given up on RoSPA just because of some idiotic musings of someone who is so reactionary it beggars belief? And, what's more, whom you can choose to ignore.

I've had similarly idiotic advice from Bob by email (steering technique in my case) but, instead of giving up, I just laughed and carried on doing it the way I'd always done it and I still get gold every time.

Quick, cancel your cancellation before it's too late!

[AdrianEagle]

Thanks for the input. It is too late and I wouldn't retract it even if I had a chance.

I do not need RoSPA or any other training group to enjoy my driving or to give help or advice to others who are interested in improving their standard of driving. If Mr Smalley is so pig headed and thinks he knows it all then one day he is liable to fall flat on his face. I have been driving for 50+ years, am a Member of a national one model car club and arrange annual meets and drives for the Members. I have driven so many miles I have lost count so I think I know what I am talking about.

I have even offered to arrange a meet for the North Wales PHers but no great results so far. I'll maybe try again once we know the outcome of this petrol situation.

[Zeeky]

How does the examiner know that the aftermarket device is not under-reading?

[S. Gonzales Esq.]

AdrianEagle said:

... an after market fitted electronic device that has been proved to be 99.9% accurate.

Is that a euphemism for a screen-mounted SatNav?

[AdrianEagle]

How does Mr Smalley or anyone else know that an OEM speedo is not UNDERREADING which is a much more dangerous situation? Have you ever come across an accurate vehicle speedometer?

Yes it is a euphonism for a SatNav most of which are now acknowledged to be as near to 100% accurate as they can be. Unofficially acknowledged as so by much of the police Force. No error can be created by incorrect tyre pressures, slip, or other influence from a mechanical system.

Oh - did I forget to mention that I am ex Police , Hendon Trained.

[R0G]

AdrianEagle said:

I am ex Police , Hendon Trained.

I assume Mr Smalley is of the same ilk so therefore you two can have a discussion on equal terms on this issue - so why has this not been done?

[AdrianEagle]

He is adamant about his view, whereas I believe in using everything available to the driver to ensure compliance with the Law and also safe motoring. Whilst I appreciate his view on the matter (he no doubt has bosses) I believe that a balance between using the two available instruments is the best proposition. Either could fail and the second would be a check. However, an experienced driver can generally perceive his speed without reference to the instrument, whichever it is, especially in familiar surroundings. Another guide can always be obtained from the tachometer if the car has one.

The main point of my complaint is that without discussion he is prepared to give up accuracy purely for traditional methods. I do not think we are too far away from having fully electronic recording equipment in new vehicles, and such will be heavily dependent on present and future technology. Mileage charging for use of the road is just around the corner and the equipment will no doubt be capable of recording speed as well as the day, date, time and place!

[Pontoneer]

I tend to just drive to the speed indicated on my car's speedometer .

I recently compared the indicated speeds between my car's speedometer( with part worn rear tyres at 3 or 4 mm tread , therefore actual speed will be slightly less than indicated speed ) and the speed reading on the TomTom app in my iPhone .

Traveling along a straight and level motorway , with cruise control set to a precisely indicated 70 on the speedo , the satnav said 68 . Later , I set CC to dead on 30 on the car's speedo and satnav showed 29 . With new tyres the readings might correspond exactly - I'm not sure how much difference 2 or 3mm of tread would make .

What I do know is that I'm not desperate to make every last mph of progress - in the real world it will make little or no difference to my journey times - so why get all worked up about it ?

How do you suppose it would go in court if you tried to argue in your defence - "yes , I know my speedo said I was going 74 mph , but my satnav said otherwise and I know better " ......

Unless you are comparing readings with a CALIBRATED device , you cannot say with any authority that one is right and the other is wrong - both may be wrong and you won't know by how much .

I too had the equivalent of Gold Award - only it was League of Safe Drivers Class 1 when I did it and used to instruct .

[SonicShadow]

Pontoneer said:

Unless you are comparing readings with a CALIBRATED device , you cannot say with any authority that one is right and the other is wrong - both may be wrong and you won't know by how much .

For the purposes of speed to the nearest MPH, your average household SatNav is accurate.

[Pontoneer]

So a lot of people seem to think .

Speeds indicated by satnav devices can vary according to conditions : I can drive at a constant speed as indicated by my speedometer and watch the satnav reading vary according to changes in incline , direction , access to some of the satellites due to tall buildings etc ..... so they are not always accurate .

As I said above , unless you have a recognised calibration certificate , it won't stand up in a court of law .

[carinaman]

It's a shame you're leaving, I'd just ignore it. People that think they know best exist in all walks of life not just advanced driving. Who's right and who's wrong in this case is unimportant. Sadly again it's about speed rather than driving standards and what's appropriate for that particular stretch of road at that particular time.

I just pay the subscription and take the retests as I am only interested in getting my driving regularly assessed.

[AdrianEagle]

What's the point - he is the "big boss" of all driver training and testing. As I prefer to teach others more than just being a "Member with a Badge", there will always be contact and therefore conflict.

I can still give help and assistance to those who wish to improve their driving skills but outside of such organisations. Not all drivers who take a course wish to take the advanced driving test, which with RoSPA has to be retaken every 3 years with annual subscriptions maintained. It's a business not a philanthropic organisation! Think of the money I'll save from my pension!

[AdrianEagle]

Pontoneer said:

So a lot of people seem to think .

Speeds indicated by satnav devices can vary according to conditions : I can drive at a constant speed as indicated by my speedometer and watch the satnav reading vary according to changes in incline , direction , access to some of the satellites due to tall buildings etc ..... so they are not always accurate .

As I said above , unless you have a recognised calibration certificate , it won't stand up in a court of law .

So let's go to Court and question the Police on the method and accuracy of their vehicle calibration! It can only be regarded as accurate "AT THE TIME OF CALIBRATION" and it cannot be proved that any Police speed recording device is or was accurate at the precise moment of use. This is why prosecutions are not made for minor excesses of speed, e.g. 31, 41, 51, etc. (Unless, of course ones name is Brunstrum!). In other words the Courts ALLOW for error.

[Zeeky]

Has a satanv been calibrated to prove it does not under-read in the same way as a speedometer has?

I cannot see how a satnav could be calibrated as it appears to take time to 'catch up' with the speed of the vehicle during acceleration and deceleration.

[Pontoneer]

AdrianEagle said:

So let's go to Court and question the Police on the method and accuracy of their vehicle calibration! It can only be regarded as accurate "AT THE TIME OF CALIBRATION" and it cannot be proved that any Police speed recording device is or was accurate at the precise moment of use. This is why prosecutions are not made for minor excesses of speed, e.g. 31, 41, 51, etc. (Unless, of course ones name is Brunstrum!). In other words the Courts ALLOW for error.

While you are correct , a calibration certificate normally has an expiry date .

Moreover , as ex traffic police , you will know that proceedure required equipment to be checked at the start of a shift and again at the end : if any difference between the two checks then all speed checks for that day would be thrown out .

[7mike]

Why do people say these will/will not be acceptable in court? Surley it still comes down to your word as to what speed you claim to have been doing? Unless they have some sort of data storage method (don't think the sat navs in my cars do; but I'm a bit of a technophobe so happy to be corrected).

[Pontoneer]

Zeeky said:

Has a satanv been calibrated to prove it does not under-read in the same way as a speedometer has?

I cannot see how a satnav could be calibrated as it appears to take time to 'catch up' with the speed of the vehicle during acceleration and deceleration.

Hence I mentioned in my post that I had travelled for a time on a straight and level road in order to establish steady state readings for my comparison , which was only for my own interest .

[AdrianEagle]

I have never said that a Sat Nav is accurate to the Nth degree and would not rely on one for any "guiness Book of Records" attempt. However, they have been proved to be very accurate and certainly better than a speedo that has an error of over 25% at 30 MPH and lord knows what at higher speeds. I know that Sat Nav relies on calculations made at fixed intervals and based on information received from a number of satellites, and that the results of these calculations do not show on the instrument immediately. But the results are shown within a fraction of a second for gradual speed increases. They do lag a little under hard acceleration or deceleration and any vehicle driver would be aware of this and act accordingly.

As far as recording is concerned, my Sat Nav records all journeys, records way points at intervals, and gives average speed over the journey amongst much other information. I believe, but have not tried it, that the manufacturers can extract more information about speed between way points, which would be useful as evidence should a need arise.

A Police vehicle could appear to be properly calibrated at the start and end of shift but, of course, and probably unusually, could have had a self correcting fault between the two times.

What an interesting discussion this is!

[StressedDave]

AdrianEagle said:

I have never said that a Sat Nav is accurate to the Nth degree and would not rely on one for any "guiness Book of Records" attempt. However, they have been proved to be very accurate and certainly better than a speedo that has an error of over 25% at 30 MPH and lord knows what at higher speeds.

Actually C&U these days states +10%+4 km/h/-0%, so the maximum error at 30mph could be 18% overread (i.e. 36ish mph rather than 30 mph). There's a bit more of an error in SVA rules allowing for 10%+6.25mph overread.