Roundabouts - what exactly constitutes 'cutting'?

[RenesisEvo]

Looking for a bit of advice/discussion.

On Sunday I went out for a drive with a different IAM Observer to normal. Did learn a few things, but one thing stuck with me - my line around roundabouts (rbt) when going straight over, when not limited by other traffic.

Roundabout (1) - going straight over a large rbt with multiple lanes, I rigidly stuck to the appropriate lane markings. The observer commented that I was exaggerating the line around the rbt, and that was unnecessary (no traffic circulating close to me).

Roundabout (2) - going straight on, I turned a bit to the left, but then gradually straightened the line out and 'took the apex' of the roundabout on the right, then gradually positioned across to the left. The observer then told me off for cutting the roundabout. Again, no traffic circulating close to me. Fair enough.

Later I got in the passenger seat and the observer drove - and he did exactly the same on a roundabout that I did in (2). This thoroughly confused me, especially as he did similar later on but remarked that he must not cut the roundabout.

Clearly, minimal/no steering input at all would be cutting (IMO), (although I believe if conditions allow this, why not?) but beyond this it's as clear as mud. So I would greatly welcome advice on what line I should take on an empty roundabout when going straight ahead.

TIA

[davepoth]

Cutting would be any time you move across lanes on a roundabout without indicating for the purposes of straight lining it. Even if there's no other traffic, it's still cutting. IMO if it can be avoided it should be; nobody's observation skills are 100% and so putting your car where it should be as much as you can is always a good idea.

[kaf]

Sometimes what you 'think' you are doing, is not the same as what you are actually doing.

Should have raised the issue with the observer, pointing out that you thought you did what he did.

That would have elicited a fuller explanation of how he saw the actions as different.

[Vaux]

RenesisEvo said:

Later I got in the passenger seat and the observer drove - and he did exactly the same on a roundabout that I did in (2). This thoroughly confused me, especially as he did similar later on but remarked that he must not cut the roundabout.

Clearly, minimal/no steering input at all would be cutting (IMO), (although I believe if conditions allow this, why not?) but beyond this it's as clear as mud. So I would greatly welcome advice on what line I should take on an empty roundabout when going straight ahead.

TIA

Will you get him next drive? I'd ask him to try and explain it, as it was confusing you. Maybe he's confused?! Maybe your area has an Examiner that has a thing about it.
Did the Observer drive your car, or was this in his car?

[7mike]

I was once told by an IAM observer that indicating at the 300yard marker of a m/way was too soon. I pointed out that Roadcraft advise applying the signal approaching this point. As he was adamant that 'that was what they want' I dared asking him who 'they' were. The answer; 'the committee!!'

btw, he'd never heard of Roadcraft either.

Op there are some excellent tutors/observers around & also some utter jokes. I wouldn't worry too much about this observer's opinions (that's all they are, his/her opinion) you'll find examiner's generally are a lot less dogmatic(I work with a lot of them).
If you can justify your positioning through a roundabout (or feel you had a good reason to use a signal etc) then do it, why should your opinion be any less valid than someone else's.

[johnao]

kaf said:

Should have raised the issue with the observer, pointing out that you thought you did what he did.

That would have elicited a fuller explanation of how he saw the actions as different.

Completely agree with this. It can sometimes feel a bit daunting to question an observer who is perceived as "knowing everything". But don't hold back - keep asking questions until you are satisfied that either, you understand exactly what the observer is getting at or, that he doesn't know what he's talking about. Trust me, there are a few observers out there, only a few, who don't know what they're talking about, and this just might be one of them.

As for straight-lining roundabouts - as long as it's safe to do so, your examiner will expect you to straight-line roundabouts, even if there are lane markings. I emphasise that it must be safe to do so and you mustn't confuse or mislead other road users so, if there's nobody about go for it. Why do we straight-line roundabouts? I would suggest that as advanced drivers we are always looking for straight lines because a vehicle travelling at a constant speed in a straight line is at its most stable. But, never forget - only if it's safe to do so.

Indeed, the safety issue is one that you can use to challenge your observer next time he says "you shouldn't have done that". Ask him was it safe, was it legal, was it smooth, did it confuse or mislead another road user? - Then, if he still says, "ah but, you still shouldn't have done that", you can ask him to explain on what grounds he believes that you shouldn't have done it.

Hope this helps - just keep questioning until you're satisfied.

[BertBert]

I'm with 7mike, classic IAM observer bks!

[7db]

Why do you care about whether it is "cutting" or not?

Was it safe?
Is it a safe habit?
Is there any other advantage (smoothness, speed, comfort)?

Are you trying to pass a test (ask the testers / check the syllabus)

Is this how you want to drive?

[Dr Jekyll]

7mike said:

I was once told by an IAM observer ....................btw, he'd never heard of Roadcraft either.

[RenesisEvo]

7db said:

Why do you care about whether it is "cutting" or not?

The Observer made it sound like a big no-no. He drove his car, I drove mine. I did want to ask, but I didn't really find an opportunity to question it. The Observer had just done a refresher course the week before, I felt like he should be right up to speed.

7db said:

Was it safe?

As far as I could determine, yes. I wouldn't do it otherwise.

7db said:

Is it a safe habit?
Is there any other advantage (smoothness, speed, comfort)?

A straight line is a stable line, so I believe so. Certainly, there is a lot to be said for reducing/eliminating up to three changes of direction for all the reasons you mention.

7db said:

Is this how you want to drive?

Yes. I don't see how it's any different to straight-lining other bits of road, which I have been encouraged to do. As long as its safe and doesn't in any way impact on other road users, there is plenty to be gained, and nothing to be lost, IMO.

kaf said:

Sometimes what you 'think' you are doing, is not the same as what you are actually doing.Should have raised the issue with the observer, pointing out that you thought you did what he did.

I agree - something I perhaps should have considered more at the time.

I will endeavour to have a discussion about this on my next drive - with another Observer (long story but I'm being put on an Observer merry-go-round, I agreed to it and it is to my benefit).

Edited by RenesisEvo on Wednesday 4th April 08:44

[ScoobyChris]

When I did my IAM (after doing a couple of other courses), my observer got very upset about my use of straight-lining and suggested that if lanes were marked on the roundabout, they should be adhered to, regardless of the level of traffic. I was lucky enough to drive one of the same roundabouts (ignoring the observer's comments) with the examiner and he complimented me on my choice of line.

I'm not sure I understand the distinction your observer was making between straightening and "cutting" but it's well worth raising with him if you drive with him again. You can always approach it as "I've been thinking about the advice you gave me last time about not cutting roundabouts and wondered if you'd mind going through it again so it's clear in my mind...". That should set you up to ask lots of questions too and any observer worth his salt, will be more than happy to go through it until you're happy (or at least you reach a point of understanding)

Chris

[Mr Grayson]

Dr Jekyll said:

They have their own book

[R0G]

davepoth said:

Cutting would be any time you move across lanes on a roundabout without indicating for the purposes of straight lining it. Even if there's no other traffic, it's still cutting. IMO if it can be avoided it should be; nobody's observation skills are 100% and so putting your car where it should be as much as you can is always a good idea.

As a senior IAM observer I totally disagree

Straight lining a RBT can be perfectly safe to do even if its laned

Its a poor driver who does not recognise and use the safe opportunity to do so
CAVEAT - not for learner drivers!!

Not to be done if it encourages others behind to do the same.

Anyone who disagrees please contact your advanced driving examiner(s) - we have three and all agree (that rhymes!!)

Edited by R0G on Wednesday 4th April 09:14

[ScoobyChris]

R0G said:

Not to be done if it encourages others behind to do the same.

This always confuses me

1. How do I know what the car behind will do, until I make the first move?
2. Where does my responsibility for other driver's decisions end?

Chris

[R0G]

ScoobyChris said:

This always confuses me

1. How do I know what the car behind will do, until I make the first move?
2. Where does my responsibility for other driver's decisions end?

Chris

As drivers tend to follow like sheep it will be more than likely that following drivers will copy you

As an advanced driver your responsibility is for all road users and it never ends

[7db]

ScoobyChris said:

1. How do I know what the car behind will do, until I make the first move?

Practically it's never a case of one-offs. You can usually spot another driver over-driving or racing with you. You straight line a roundabout - he gets it wrong. You power through a corner, he takes a bite of the verge. You nibble a white line, he offsides a blind bend. It's a question of how many of those you do before you decide to drive like a nun and/or get him in front of you.

ScoobyChris said:

2. Where does my responsibility for other driver's decisions end?

Legally? You don't have a lot of responsibility (although note CPSs recent line on an unabandonded Police pursuit which tried to hold the Police driver responsible for the dangerous actions of the target vehicle).

Morally? You need to use all your learnt skills and talent to help him avoid having an accident. Particularly one with you, but also with anyone else if you can. There's no higher calling.

[ScoobyChris]

R0G said:

As drivers tend to follow like sheep it will be more than likely that following drivers will copy you

I don't think you give following drivers much credit - imhe, it usually takes a few bends/roundabouts before someone "trusts" you and copies and they will rarely do it straight away (unless they planned to do it anyway in which case it doesn't matter what you do).

R0G said:

As an advanced driver your responsibility is for all road users and it never ends

That's a big burden of responsibility I may use what I have learnt to influence other drivers, but ultimately the decision (and responsibility) must lie with them.

Chris

[R0G]

ScoobyChris said:

R0G said:

As drivers tend to follow like sheep it will be more than likely that following drivers will copy you

I don't think you give following drivers much credit - imhe, it usually takes a few bends/roundabouts before someone "trusts" you and copies and they will rarely do it straight away (unless they planned to do it anyway in which case it doesn't matter what you do).

R0G said:

As an advanced driver your responsibility is for all road users and it never ends

That's a big burden of responsibility I may use what I have learnt to influence other drivers, but ultimately the decision (and responsibility) must lie with them.

Chris

After many years of observing what others do I can assure you they are more likely to follow like sheep without really thinking through the situation for themselves to any great degree

Of course the ultimate decision rests with the driver but as an advanced driver you are supposed to be able to assist them as much as safely possible

An advanced driver should be able to 'virtually' put themselves into the driving seat of every vehicle around them and reasonably anticipate what others will do

[ScoobyChris]

7db said:

Practically it's never a case of one-offs. You can usually spot another driver over-driving or racing with you. You straight line a roundabout - he gets it wrong. You power through a corner, he takes a bite of the verge. You nibble a white line, he offsides a blind bend. It's a question of how many of those you do before you decide to drive like a nun and/or get him in front of you.

I'd completely agree with that and after a while they may decide they like your lines and follow them, but it takes a few bends/roundabouts before that happens imhe.

7db said:

Legally? You don't have a lot of responsibility (although note CPSs recent line on an unabandonded Police pursuit which tried to hold the Police driver responsible for the dangerous actions of the target vehicle).

Morally? You need to use all your learnt skills and talent to help him avoid having an accident. Particularly one with you, but also with anyone else if you can. There's no higher calling.

Agreed again, but at the end of the day, I can only influence his decisions and ultimately he must take responsibility for what he decides to do. For example, if I'm driving along and someone who is over-driving is behind me, is it more responsible for me to hold him up (with the risk of a frustrated overtake) or let him overtake when safe so he can speed up and kill himself on the next bend. The standard answer seems to be that it's better to let them overtake (and have their inevitable accident far away from you).

Chris

[ScoobyChris]

R0G said:

After many years of observing what others do I can assure you they are more likely to follow like sheep without really thinking through the situation for themselves to any great degree

After many years of observing, I can assure you that's not my experience

R0G said:

Of course the ultimate decision rests with the driver but as an advanced driver you are supposed to be able to assist them as much as safely possible

An advanced driver should be able to 'virtually' put themselves into the driving seat of every vehicle around them and reasonably anticipate what others will do

And I would agree with that - but that's a far cry from being responsible for every other driver on the road

Chris