Left foot braking...

[crocodile tears]

After a sprinted drive down some winding countryside roads tonight - I'm genuinely struggling to understand why left foot braking on the road isnt the norm for sprinted or 'advanced' driving?

coming straight off the accelerator to briefly jab the brakes can really upset the balance of the vehicle and even the time delay for just for a dab before you can get on the throttle again makes light and day difference in terms of time too IMO
I would have thought this would be incorperated to many advanced driving schools of thought

Although there is an argument for getting your footwork mixed up.. On the corners that flow much better with just some left foot braking I physically take my foot from the dead pedal/foot rest, hover it over the brake and then tap my foot back to the foot rest once I've finished

[HustleRussell]

-pretty much everyone lacks the feel and modulation required for braking with the left foot
-left foot braking is useless, nay dangerous, if you need to make an emergency stop
-you can't left foot brake if you want to downshift
-'balance' and 'turn-in' aren't of any interest to IAM types. Safety and smoothness is.

[crocodile tears]

HustleRussell said:

-pretty much everyone lacks the feel and modulation required for braking with the left foot
-left foot braking is useless, nay dangerous, if you need to make an emergency stop
-you can't left foot brake if you want to downshift
-'balance' and 'turn-in' aren't of any interest to IAM types. Safety and smoothness is.

- I've developed quite a reasonable feel (possibly to do with being left handed/left footed)
- not sure I'd agree with that all it means is you will stall if you have to come to a complete stop
- hence why its only useful (but VERY useful) for some corners (if you read my text close enough I pretty much implied that it was for corners that only needed "jabs" or "dabs" - not enough to warrant a downshift)
- fairy muff

[HustleRussell]

FYI I wasn't suggesting you lack the feel for it etc- just most people do. And those that do will find it difficult to learn in a modern car with over-assisted brakes. They aren't physically set up for it either- usually there's a steering column between the clutch and brake pedals.
Re: emergency stopping- yes you'll still stop the car, but the fact you also have to decelerate an engine which is spinning at a couple of thousand RPM means it will take longer and be less controlled, and the fact the engine is then stalled means you lose assisted brakes and steering and you can't get yourself out of trouble as fast if you've stopped in a bad place!
So yeah in some circumstances it's useful but suggesting it'd be desirable to IAM types doesn't really ring true IMO.

[7mike]

crocodile tears said:

- not sure I'd agree with that all it means is you will stall if you have to come to a complete stop

If I had to do an emergency stop I'd want to have the engine running ready to get out of the way of the next in line!!

I appreciate however this is not the scenario you are talking about. I have used it on my very limited track experience so can see the possible uses. I can't say as I've ever felt it would have benefitted any situation I've ever had to deal with on public roads. Have you tried keeping you right foot on the throttle whilst left foot braking?

[crocodile tears]

HustleRussell said:

FYI I wasn't suggesting you lack the feel for it etc- just most people do. And those that do will find it difficult to learn in a modern car with over-assisted brakes. They aren't physically set up for it either- usually there's a steering column between the clutch and brake pedals.
Re: emergency stopping- yes you'll still stop the car, but the fact you also have to decelerate an engine which is spinning at a couple of thousand RPM means it will take longer and be less controlled, and the fact the engine is then stalled means you lose assisted brakes and steering and you can't get yourself out of trouble as fast if you've stopped in a bad place!
So yeah in some circumstances it's useful but suggesting it'd be desirable to IAM types doesn't really ring true IMO.

its a good point you make.. To most the extra safety and simplicity is more important than having the 'edge'

Thinking about it some cars these days don't actually allow you to simultaneously brake and accelerate either

[crocodile tears]

7mike said:

crocodile tears said:

- not sure I'd agree with that all it means is you will stall if you have to come to a complete stop

If I had to do an emergency stop I'd want to have the engine running ready to get out of the way of the next in line!!

I appreciate however this is not the scenario you are talking about. I have used it on my very limited track experience so can see the possible uses. I can't say as I've ever felt it would have benefitted any situation I've ever had to deal with on public roads. Have you tried keeping you right foot on the throttle whilst left foot braking?

of course.. it all depends on the situation. letting off in my car (light fwd with rear torsion bar) can cause colourful oversteer in the wet anyway so sometimes just a dab of the brakes whilst still on the throttle is the best thing to do if you want to trim some speed off

[R300will]

when driving a manual car your clutch foot i.e. left isn't as sensitive as your accelerator foot and so is a bit harsh on the brakes as i think has already been mentioned which results in even more unbalancing of the car and actually going slower than you would normally have gone. It should be a rule when learning to drive automatics though IMO. And with these semi auto boxes getting ever more popular i can see myself owning one soon and left foot braking in that.

[M4cruiser]

Best principle of advanced driving is do what the very experienced are advising, they have tried most things and made conclusions, and they have much more experience than any of us . . .

In my world "they" are the Hendon police school, they wrote Roadcraft, so best keep to that. Does Roadcraft advise left foot braking?

There may be specialist applications of left foot braking e.g. rally cars, to shave a few tenths off a time, but road driving is more about safety than speed.

[crocodile tears]

M4cruiser said:

Best principle of advanced driving is do what the very experienced are advising, they have tried most things and made conclusions, and they have much more experience than any of us . . .

In my world "they" are the Hendon police school, they wrote Roadcraft, so best keep to that. Does Roadcraft advise left foot braking?

There may be specialist applications of left foot braking e.g. rally cars, to shave a few tenths off a time, but road driving is more about safety than speed.

Although I've never attented any advanced driving course, nor do I pretend I'm a driving god.. From reading a variety of different 'schools of thought' I seem to have taken bits of pieces and applied them to my own 'style' of driving..

For instance if you want to drive economically, what rpm do you sit at? Some people sit at a low rpm as possible, just chugging along.. But generally speaking I'd rather be at 2k+ even if its not the most economical so I can pull away faster or take evasive action should it be required. A lot of theories and information are very conflicting

And aswell left foot braking for instance is only a technique that comes out when I'm pushing on.


I don't think anyone is right as it depends on your own values:

- do you drive economically or safely?
- do you value saftey or progression over gearbox/clutch/brake wear
- do you drive to the speed limits or drive to the conditions
- do you value progression or safety

Edited by crocodile tears on Sunday 26th February 19:55

Edited by crocodile tears on Sunday 26th February 20:05

[otolith]

crocodile tears said:

of course.. it all depends on the situation. letting off in my car (light fwd with rear torsion bar) can cause colourful oversteer in the wet anyway so sometimes just a dab of the brakes whilst still on the throttle is the best thing to do if you want to trim some speed off

I may be wrong, but I don't think the IAM/RoSPA crowd would ever advocate cornering hard enough that lifting off would cause colourful oversteer - I think they'd just tell you to slow down or fix the car.

[otolith]

M4cruiser said:

In my world "they" are the Hendon police school, they wrote Roadcraft, so best keep to that. Does Roadcraft advise left foot braking?

There may be specialist applications of left foot braking e.g. rally cars, to shave a few tenths off a time, but road driving is more about safety than speed.

I think the objectives of police driver training are "consistent", "reproducible", "testable" and "good enough", rather than "perfect". I think it would be narrow minded to think that all there is to know is taught at Hendon.

[timbob]

crocodile tears said:

I don't think anyone is right as it depends on your own values:

- do you drive economically or safely?
- do you value saftey or progression over gearbox/clutch/brake wear
- do you drive to the speed limits or drive to the conditions
- do you value progression or safety

I'm sure I won't be the only person who says:

- both
- both
- both
- both

[crocodile tears]

timbob said:

I'm sure I won't be the only person who says:

- both
- both
- both
- both

you were driving as economical as you could, you would not be driving as safely as you could..

You have found a personal compromise.

The same applys for each point.

[crocodile tears]

otolith said:

I may be wrong, but I don't think the IAM/RoSPA crowd would ever advocate cornering hard enough that lifting off would cause colourful oversteer - I think they'd just tell you to slow down or fix the car.

you are probably right

I was just thinking.. It would be nice to also have some input from how someone would drive on a closed road on a special stage tarmac rally

[timbob]

crocodile tears said:

you were driving as economical as you could, you would not be driving as safely as you could..

You have found a personal compromise.

The same applys for each point.

No, but it's not a black and white choice one way or the other. You can be both economical AND safe in your driving, and it would be foolish to attempt to do one to an extreme degree at the expense of the other.

The same point applies to your point of driving to either the speed limits OR the conditions. It's not a personal compromise to drive to both - it's common sense.

[crocodile tears]

timbob said:

No, but it's not a black and white choice one way or the other. You can be both economical AND safe in your driving, and it would be foolish to attempt to do one to an extreme degree at the expense of the other.

The same point applies to your point of driving to either the speed limits OR the conditions. It's not a personal compromise to drive to both - it's common sense.

Not when you're in a competition with someone to see who can get the best mpg from the same journey on the trip computer

... I won

[BertBert]

how bizaare, groundhog day anyone?

BertBert said:

crocodile tears said:

can anyone else prodive an input on this?

Yes. Get on a track your driving is inappropriate on the road.

To be in a position where you need to hover over the brake with your left foot as lifting off will cause oversteer is reckless.

Bert

[crocodile tears]

BertBert said:

how bizaare, groundhog day anyone?

BertBert said:

crocodile tears said:

can anyone else prodive an input on this?

Yes. Get on a track your driving is inappropriate on the road.

To be in a position where you need to hover over the brake with your left foot as lifting off will cause oversteer is reckless.

Bert

The responses from my comments on that thread prevoked a lot of thought, I made this thread after I returned home from a drive on the grounds that I still feel there is still undeniably a place for it at times on public roads. Even when you aren't driving anywhere near the limit - although this again is where perception comes into it.

[timbob]

crocodile tears said:

The responses from my comments on that thread prevoked a lot of thought, I made this thread after I returned home from a drive on the grounds that I still feel there is still undeniably a place for it at times on public roads. Even when you aren't driving anywhere near the limit - although this again is where perception comes into it.

I honestly can't think of even a single application for it, only the potential for negative consequences.