Experience of Skid Control Session
Discussion
Thanks to DaineseMan/Jonathan for organising the skid car session.
I turned up early to watch a bit of the earlier session. There appeared to be a lot of sliding, spinning and rubber-burning going on which looked promising.
The location was good, being It was a large, slightly undulating, gravel covered car park with little in the way of 'furniture'. The cars were nicely well-(ab)used 3-series saloons on a cradle/castors.
The session was split into 2 halves, dealing with understeer and oversteer. 2 people per car took turns to drive.
The 'understeer' part was quite useful. I was aware of what was required to deal with horrendous understeer (and have experienced it on the road and off-road, with varying outcomes...), but it is rare that one gets the opportunity to practice a few times in a controlled environment. NB. The car was very reluctant to turn in and needed nursing around corners -basically, it behaved just like a 1980s Vauxhall Cavalier.
-One thing I did notice was that the cradle car didn't *appear* to allow as much weight transfer as a normal car due to the front end being raised off the floor a little, so my attempts to (controversially) induce lift-off oversteer weren't as effective as I'd hoped. I may be wrong however.
The 'oversteer' experience was great. The supposed purpose of the course was to understand what happens in a skid and how to get out of it, which is fairly straight-forward and I was quite aware of that. I was (obviously) more interested in holding the car in a nice drift
After a couple of laps the car was hanging out the rear quite nicely, anti-clockwise and clockwise. The instructor was increasing and decreasing the grip to make me work at it and the gravel was thicker in some places than in others. If anybody's interested, to catch the initial skid, I used rotational steering, but once the car was set up in a 'drift', smooth fixed-input steering and modulating the throttle was adequate for the small corrections.
-I suspect that the cradle car on gravel might have made holding a drift easier than it might have been on a skid pan.
Overall, it was really good to put some theory into practice, the terminal-understeer recovery practice was useful and I'd not done any 'drifting-lite' in a rwd car before.
I'd now like to have a go at gravel rallying in a Mk2 RS Escort and get myself a drifting car.
I turned up early to watch a bit of the earlier session. There appeared to be a lot of sliding, spinning and rubber-burning going on which looked promising.
The location was good, being It was a large, slightly undulating, gravel covered car park with little in the way of 'furniture'. The cars were nicely well-(ab)used 3-series saloons on a cradle/castors.
The session was split into 2 halves, dealing with understeer and oversteer. 2 people per car took turns to drive.
The 'understeer' part was quite useful. I was aware of what was required to deal with horrendous understeer (and have experienced it on the road and off-road, with varying outcomes...), but it is rare that one gets the opportunity to practice a few times in a controlled environment. NB. The car was very reluctant to turn in and needed nursing around corners -basically, it behaved just like a 1980s Vauxhall Cavalier.
-One thing I did notice was that the cradle car didn't *appear* to allow as much weight transfer as a normal car due to the front end being raised off the floor a little, so my attempts to (controversially) induce lift-off oversteer weren't as effective as I'd hoped. I may be wrong however.
The 'oversteer' experience was great. The supposed purpose of the course was to understand what happens in a skid and how to get out of it, which is fairly straight-forward and I was quite aware of that. I was (obviously) more interested in holding the car in a nice drift
After a couple of laps the car was hanging out the rear quite nicely, anti-clockwise and clockwise. The instructor was increasing and decreasing the grip to make me work at it and the gravel was thicker in some places than in others. If anybody's interested, to catch the initial skid, I used rotational steering, but once the car was set up in a 'drift', smooth fixed-input steering and modulating the throttle was adequate for the small corrections.
-I suspect that the cradle car on gravel might have made holding a drift easier than it might have been on a skid pan.
Overall, it was really good to put some theory into practice, the terminal-understeer recovery practice was useful and I'd not done any 'drifting-lite' in a rwd car before.
I'd now like to have a go at gravel rallying in a Mk2 RS Escort and get myself a drifting car.
Edited by MC Bodge on Sunday 12th February 16:05
I've not driven a car with a cradle, but I've done a few sessions on various low grip surfaces. I think the best exercise was the kick plate at the Silverstone Porsche place, because in all other cases I had deliberately induced the skid myself, and was therefore aware that it was coming, which way the car was going to go and what input I needed to remove to control it. The kick plate just punts you into oversteer as you enter the low grip surface, and you never know whether it will go left or right - much harder than making the car skid with throttle and steering input and then controlling it.
In this case we were driving around in an oval circuit with 'neutral' handling. The instructor would then adjust the hydraulics.
Obviously the direction of the skid could be predicted, although I was too busy to be looking at what he was doing. The severity could also vary depending upon the location and speed.
It was fun holding the car on a reasonable amount of opposite lock and responding to the changes to keep the car carving the desired arc.
Obviously the direction of the skid could be predicted, although I was too busy to be looking at what he was doing. The severity could also vary depending upon the location and speed.
It was fun holding the car on a reasonable amount of opposite lock and responding to the changes to keep the car carving the desired arc.
otolith said:
I've not driven a car with a cradle, but I've done a few sessions on various low grip surfaces. I think the best exercise was the kick plate at the Silverstone Porsche place, because in all other cases I had deliberately induced the skid myself, and was therefore aware that it was coming, which way the car was going to go and what input I needed to remove to control it. The kick plate just punts you into oversteer as you enter the low grip surface, and you never know whether it will go left or right - much harder than making the car skid with throttle and steering input and then controlling it.
I find the kick plate unrealistic. You are likely to have an idea in the real world which way it's going to go based on what you were doing immediately prior.MC Bodge said:
vonhosen said:
I find the kick plate unrealistic. You are likely to have an idea in the real world which way it's going to go based on what you were doing immediately prior.
Yes, but if the Earth were to suddenly shift on its axis....?MC Bodge said:
One point to note was that even when prepared for it, recovery from major understeer still requires a lot of space, which is not often available on the road.
A very good point. For example, last winter I did just this; came round a corner ( slowly ) where I live, the road was a sheet of ice. I turned and nothing happened and, as I found out yesterday, I did everything wrong. So I hit the curb and it cost me some new suspension bits and a new wheel. But, the more I think about what I should have done, the more I think that even if I'd have done the correct thing, I doubt there would have been enough space for the car not to have hit the curb.
snuffy said:
But, the more I think about what I should have done, the more I think that even if I'd have done the correct thing, I doubt there would have been enough space for the car not to have hit the curb.
I think a few of us may have done similar... Slightly unwinding the lock wasn't sufficient and throwing it-all-in and going for plan C (braking) didn't help either, although I did find that a snow bank was a bit softer than a kerbstone. MC Bodge said:
snuffy said:
But, the more I think about what I should have done, the more I think that even if I'd have done the correct thing, I doubt there would have been enough space for the car not to have hit the curb.
I think a few of us may have done similar... Slightly unwinding the lock wasn't sufficient and throwing it-all-in and going for plan C (braking) didn't help either, although I did find that a snow bank was a bit softer than a kerbstone. 
jaf01uk said:
Did you try "staying on the gas" as discussed on the other thread about understeer, how did that go?
With the level of grip available (like driving on ice), staying on the gas wasn't the way to go. Even my attempts at getting on the gas a little too early resulted in further massive understeer.In thick virgin snow that provides more grip/retardation then there may be some benefit.
otolith said:
vonhosen said:
I find the kick plate unrealistic. You are likely to have an idea in the real world which way it's going to go based on what you were doing immediately prior.
I agree - but better that than unrealistically easy.Pugsey said:
otolith said:
vonhosen said:
I find the kick plate unrealistic. You are likely to have an idea in the real world which way it's going to go based on what you were doing immediately prior.
I agree - but better that than unrealistically easy.Pugsey said:
I disagree. Obviously, on here, we're all driving Gods BUT in the real world many people are 100% totally surprised when they find the need for opposite lock and often have NO idea why - frightening but true!!
That is possibly true, although I think that a lot of people would naturally/instinctively turn to the right if the back of the car stepped out and the nose headed off sharply to the left.Knowing what to do after that might be a problem. Over-correction and stepping off the gas not being ideal.
The course we did was about what happens and what to do in the event of a skid. It would probably be a useful experience for all drivers to have a go at.
Driving Gods obviously know this and so would gently modulate the gas and steering in harmony whilst threading the car carefully between the street furniture on the snowy High St in one fluid movement before coming to a gentle halt in a space outside Sainsburys.
Edited by MC Bodge on Tuesday 14th February 13:22
Personally, I suspect that the lesson which would most reduce loss of control accidents in inexperienced drivers is what happens if you react to initial understeer by adding more and more lock and then lifting - the lesson in that case isn't catching the excessive oversteer, it's not inducing it in the first place.
otolith said:
Personally, I suspect that the lesson which would most reduce loss of control accidents in inexperienced drivers is what happens if you react to initial understeer by adding more and more lock and then lifting
Agreed. Such things were never mentioned when I learned to drive. I discovered it for myself....As I said in my OP, the understeer practice was the most useful part of it.
The 'oversteer skid'(which became a de facto drifting session) was the more fun.
Edited by MC Bodge on Tuesday 14th February 13:53
MC Bodge said:
The 'oversteer skid'(which became a de facto drifting session) was the more fun.
I think I'd have learned more on Prodrive's low friction pad if I'd paid more attention to inducing and correcting small slides instead of trying and miserably failing to sustain extended drifts round it - but where's the fun in that?
MC Bodge said:
jaf01uk said:
Did you try "staying on the gas" as discussed on the other thread about understeer, how did that go?
With the level of grip available (like driving on ice), staying on the gas wasn't the way to go. Even my attempts at getting on the gas a little too early resulted in further massive understeer.In thick virgin snow that provides more grip/retardation then there may be some benefit.
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