Steve Sutcliffe and steering technique
Discussion
Some interesting views here...
http://www.autocar.co.uk/blogs/anythinggoes/archiv...
My take is that I don't shuffle but do try and anticipate where my hands need to be to make a smooth turn whilst being able to react if need be.
Steve
http://www.autocar.co.uk/blogs/anythinggoes/archiv...
My take is that I don't shuffle but do try and anticipate where my hands need to be to make a smooth turn whilst being able to react if need be.
Steve
Very few people speaking up for PP steering in the feedback - no-one mentions posture, always being able to turn the wheel further in either direction, having access to the ancillary controls, not having arms between the airbag and your face, etc. Nobody even points out that shuffling is not a realistic description of proper PP.
On the other hand, Rog, although PP works ok on a skid pan, in higher speed car control situations you may need to turn the wheel faster, and a rotational technique lets you turn the wheel quicker than PP even if you take 180 degree bites for PP.
On the other hand, Rog, although PP works ok on a skid pan, in higher speed car control situations you may need to turn the wheel faster, and a rotational technique lets you turn the wheel quicker than PP even if you take 180 degree bites for PP.
PP is pretty quick if you know what you're doing - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHvheQ1flwc
It just takes a lot of co-ordination and practice...
It just takes a lot of co-ordination and practice...
wst said:
PP is pretty quick if you know what you're doing - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHvheQ1flwc
It just takes a lot of co-ordination and practice...
I'll raise youIt just takes a lot of co-ordination and practice...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jSYiU-JdRw
vonhosen said:
wst said:
PP is pretty quick if you know what you're doing - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHvheQ1flwc
It just takes a lot of co-ordination and practice...
I'll raise youIt just takes a lot of co-ordination and practice...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jSYiU-JdRw
vonhosen said:
R0G said:
He means that HE cannot do it
I've done PP on a skid pan without any problems at all and with great ease
At what speed/degrees of oversteer etc ?I've done PP on a skid pan without any problems at all and with great ease
We used front and rear wheel drives with ABS on and off
I liked the rear wheel drive with ABS off - much more fun
Personally, as someone who likes to question and experiment, I use all of the various flavours of steering, dependent upon where I am, how fast I'm going and even who I am transporting.
Modern cars have high geared steering. Only 2-3 turns lock-to-lock.
For low speed driving, push-pull (or more probably, not crossing the arms) is fine and I do it a lot. In town/residential areas at slow speeds, it can also be helpful to keep the hands close to the control stalks and there is an argument against having your fore-arms in front of the airbag.
Maintaining a fixed hand position (I generally have my hands at 9-3, near the spokes) for turning the wheel through medium angles on open roads seems to make sense to me. A 'quick' rack allows quite tight bends to be taken in this way. I can see no reason why one would choose to push-pull in that situation, other than to be perverse or to 'obey a rule'.
For tighter bends, pre-positioning the hands or a reach-up (even beyond 12 o'clock, as far as 1,2 or 3 o'clock with the opposite hand) before the bend to allow the hands to be closer to the 9-3 position during the bend makes sense to me. This is not push-pull as the hands do not mirror each-other.
When quick, smooth turns through very large (say, >270degree) angles are required -on loose surfaces, evasive action or to correct a major skid- it seems odd to insist that a push-pull is used and strikes me that it is for the purposes of following dogma rather than practicality and good sense.
....Of course, there is the danger of over-correction (I've noticed that a lot of people steer too much, rather than turning the wheel less and then allowing the car to respond), which is possibly part of the real reasoning behind forcing people to use a slower steering method, even if that isn't the official line....
I've just thought (and it may well be something that I've read before): If I was to pull a weight on a cable quickly, I'd use a hand-over-hand grip the longer stroke, not a push-pull/shuffle.
Modern cars have high geared steering. Only 2-3 turns lock-to-lock.
For low speed driving, push-pull (or more probably, not crossing the arms) is fine and I do it a lot. In town/residential areas at slow speeds, it can also be helpful to keep the hands close to the control stalks and there is an argument against having your fore-arms in front of the airbag.
Maintaining a fixed hand position (I generally have my hands at 9-3, near the spokes) for turning the wheel through medium angles on open roads seems to make sense to me. A 'quick' rack allows quite tight bends to be taken in this way. I can see no reason why one would choose to push-pull in that situation, other than to be perverse or to 'obey a rule'.
For tighter bends, pre-positioning the hands or a reach-up (even beyond 12 o'clock, as far as 1,2 or 3 o'clock with the opposite hand) before the bend to allow the hands to be closer to the 9-3 position during the bend makes sense to me. This is not push-pull as the hands do not mirror each-other.
When quick, smooth turns through very large (say, >270degree) angles are required -on loose surfaces, evasive action or to correct a major skid- it seems odd to insist that a push-pull is used and strikes me that it is for the purposes of following dogma rather than practicality and good sense.
....Of course, there is the danger of over-correction (I've noticed that a lot of people steer too much, rather than turning the wheel less and then allowing the car to respond), which is possibly part of the real reasoning behind forcing people to use a slower steering method, even if that isn't the official line....
I've just thought (and it may well be something that I've read before): If I was to pull a weight on a cable quickly, I'd use a hand-over-hand grip the longer stroke, not a push-pull/shuffle.
Edited by MC Bodge on Friday 3rd February 12:00
Anyone who refers to pull-push steering as "shuffling" is doing it badly, or has been watching other people doing it badly.
The truth is that if it's done well it's a smooth, rapid and elegant method of steering.
The problem is that most learners never reach the stage of doing it well. Done badly it is indeed awkward, slow and looks ridiculous - but done well it is totally the opposite.
The truth is that if it's done well it's a smooth, rapid and elegant method of steering.
The problem is that most learners never reach the stage of doing it well. Done badly it is indeed awkward, slow and looks ridiculous - but done well it is totally the opposite.
Dr Mike Oxgreen said:
The problem is that most learners never reach the stage of doing it well. Done badly it is indeed awkward, slow and looks ridiculous - but done well it is totally the opposite.
Much of my driving is "push-pull", using the minimum of steering angle. Having practised doing it, it can be efficient. If required, though, I prefer to reach up/pre-position my hands on the wheel rather than automatically cross my arms and use rotational steering (which seemed to be the most popular method used by the people driving into the local McDonalds and Asda car parks at lunchtime). I rarely cross my arms as it isn't often needed, but I don't see a problem with it if required.Dr Mike Oxgreen said:
- but done well it is totally the opposite.
I once watched with interest as a group of Police officers under training in the Yorkshire Dales push-pulled their way out of a national park car park in their unmarked Volvos after their lunch. It wasn't particularly elegant...MC Bodge said:
I once watched with interest as a group of Police officers under training in the Yorkshire Dales push-pulled their way out of a national park car park in their unmarked Volvos after their lunch. It wasn't particularly elegant...
Maybe they were doing it badly - they were trainees after all! 
And to be fair, manoeuvring at slow speeds is one of the situations where pull-push is not the best technique. I think rotational steering is better for that - it allows you to wind on large amounts of lock very quickly, and the drawback of only having one hand on the wheel is not a problem when you're only moving at 1 mph.
vonhosen said:
id like to see someone PP at that speed lol, the coppers hands where going like a nutter at walking speed Dr Mike Oxgreen said:
Maybe they were doing it badly - they were trainees after all!
...but presumably fairly well-versed in the ways of Police driving if they were doing some sort of 'fast' course -that sounded to be the case whilst I was listening in 
Indeed. It will no doubt be frowned upon, but even 'palming the wheel', at very low speed, has its place....
My view, as it is so often is on this type of subject, is that one should keep an open mind and not stick to 'rules' for the sake of sticking to the 'rules'. Practice the various methods and use what you find most suitable.
Edited by MC Bodge on Friday 3rd February 13:38
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