Do computer games make you a better driver?
Discussion
Do bear with me for this as I know the "proper" drivers will probably flame me.
Although I have only been driving since early 2010 I have spent a large chunk of my life playing a huge variety of racing games on various consoles, coupled with a knowledge of basic vehicle dynamics. This means that when I get in-game oversteer or understeer, lift off or power-on induced, in front, four or rear drive chassis, I know exactly how to react - and depending on the physics engine I usually make a reasonable attempt at catching it. Of course, the more I have played, the more I have improved at regaining control.
Now, last winter we all saw footage of cars spinning, skidding and whatnot on ice as drivers panicked and jumped on the brakes as soon as they lost control.
When I was on an ungritted country lane with half an inch of compacted snow, I came to the crest of a hill with a corner at the bottom of it and downchanged a gear to use the engine braking to safely descend, as per the practice in off roading for descending a slippery slope without using the brakes. However, when I let the clutch in the increase in engine resistance locked the rear wheels (Land Rover running in RWD only), causing it to skew sideways just as it crested the hill. I immediately dipped the clutch and applied some opposite lock, and then corrected as it tried to flick back the other way in a tank slapper. Having got it pointing straight again I very very gently feathered the brake to slow down slightly without locking the wheels, whilst engaging 4WD and letting the clutch in again more gradually. I then descended the rest of the hill in perfect control.
The point of this missive is that I genuinely attribute my NoClaimsBonus-saving reactions to the years of video gaming. Had I reacted "normally" I would have jumped on the brakes, slid down the hill sideways and gone through the fence at the bottom into a ditch - and indeed I witnessed someone lose it in a similar way on an off road course, hit the brakes and slide to a stop at the bottom of the slope luckily 2 feet from a tree.
I therefore propose the fact that videogaming can be a substitute, though of course not as good, realistic or thorough, for actual experience and/or driver training. Do you agree? *dons tin hat and runs for cover*
Although I have only been driving since early 2010 I have spent a large chunk of my life playing a huge variety of racing games on various consoles, coupled with a knowledge of basic vehicle dynamics. This means that when I get in-game oversteer or understeer, lift off or power-on induced, in front, four or rear drive chassis, I know exactly how to react - and depending on the physics engine I usually make a reasonable attempt at catching it. Of course, the more I have played, the more I have improved at regaining control.
Now, last winter we all saw footage of cars spinning, skidding and whatnot on ice as drivers panicked and jumped on the brakes as soon as they lost control.
When I was on an ungritted country lane with half an inch of compacted snow, I came to the crest of a hill with a corner at the bottom of it and downchanged a gear to use the engine braking to safely descend, as per the practice in off roading for descending a slippery slope without using the brakes. However, when I let the clutch in the increase in engine resistance locked the rear wheels (Land Rover running in RWD only), causing it to skew sideways just as it crested the hill. I immediately dipped the clutch and applied some opposite lock, and then corrected as it tried to flick back the other way in a tank slapper. Having got it pointing straight again I very very gently feathered the brake to slow down slightly without locking the wheels, whilst engaging 4WD and letting the clutch in again more gradually. I then descended the rest of the hill in perfect control.
The point of this missive is that I genuinely attribute my NoClaimsBonus-saving reactions to the years of video gaming. Had I reacted "normally" I would have jumped on the brakes, slid down the hill sideways and gone through the fence at the bottom into a ditch - and indeed I witnessed someone lose it in a similar way on an off road course, hit the brakes and slide to a stop at the bottom of the slope luckily 2 feet from a tree.
I therefore propose the fact that videogaming can be a substitute, though of course not as good, realistic or thorough, for actual experience and/or driver training. Do you agree? *dons tin hat and runs for cover*
Edited by mat777 on Wednesday 18th January 12:22
Edited by mat777 on Wednesday 18th January 12:30
mat777 said:
I therefore propose the fact that videogaming can be a substitute, though of course not as good, realistic or thorough, for actual experience and/or driver training. Do you agree? *dons tin hat and runs for cover*
'Substitute' certainly isn't the word. A good racing simulator can teach a driver the way round a real track and to a lesser extent racing lines and braking zones.
Actual car control is a different matter. Okay you will become familiarised with what to do in the event of an oversteer/understeer, but a lot of the knack of car control is felt through your hands and the seat of your pants- virtual racing with unresponsive and numb electronic wheels and pedals is of no value to learning this.
This is all IMO.
ETA: We'll all be biased anyway. We're all car fans and therefore most of us under a certain age was playing computer games long before we first clambered behind a steering wheel and therefore may have convinced ourselves that we are better drivers as a result. Indeed, we may even have learnt a thing or two from it. However, you can learn about how to control a racing car from all sorts of places. Personally I feel I learned more about driving by understanding how the car works rather than from racing simulators.
What would be interesting is to take a group of race sim playing nerds who never bothered to leave their bedroom to learn to drive in real life, and comparing them to new drivers who haven't really played race sims. Put them on a track or a skid pan or something. This would begin to redress the pistonhead bias.
Edited by Classic Grad 98 on Wednesday 18th January 12:29
I do agree in part, You can surely learn some basic characteristics (sp) of a car, and would class it as good theory practice as reading a book to say counter steer is a lot different to a graphical display in a game showing how different reactions effect it.
Still laugh at people trying to learn the ring tho.. remember reading somewhere, someone stacked it in the foxhole,he claimed how he knew the track through forza, he said he miss calculated the slight jump... To which the people there replied.. what jump?!
So i understand your idea and can take quite a bit from games, my basic knowledge would of come from reading the description of what parts do when tuning cars on the gran turismo games
Still laugh at people trying to learn the ring tho.. remember reading somewhere, someone stacked it in the foxhole,he claimed how he knew the track through forza, he said he miss calculated the slight jump... To which the people there replied.. what jump?!
So i understand your idea and can take quite a bit from games, my basic knowledge would of come from reading the description of what parts do when tuning cars on the gran turismo games
I have the opposite problem - I'm a reasonable driver but I really struggle with driving computer games since they became more "realistic" mainly because they lack the feedback and feel of being in a real car and also the immersion of being in a real environment.
In terms of helping drivers, I think their purpose can be seen positively (ie they teach you what to do when things go wrong) but also negatively (a little knowledge is a dangerous thing!). A good example is your gear change which locked the rear wheels - you don't get that in games because the game hides the rev-matching needed for a smooth transition down the box.
As home PC's and consoles get more powerful I'm sure in the future we'll be seeing opportunities for much more realistic simulators which do address these issues, but I wonder if they would harm game sales? After all, not everyone will be skilled enough to drive like Ken Block and so they might make it that bit easier to think you can and reinforce the negatives.
Chris
In terms of helping drivers, I think their purpose can be seen positively (ie they teach you what to do when things go wrong) but also negatively (a little knowledge is a dangerous thing!). A good example is your gear change which locked the rear wheels - you don't get that in games because the game hides the rev-matching needed for a smooth transition down the box.
As home PC's and consoles get more powerful I'm sure in the future we'll be seeing opportunities for much more realistic simulators which do address these issues, but I wonder if they would harm game sales? After all, not everyone will be skilled enough to drive like Ken Block and so they might make it that bit easier to think you can and reinforce the negatives.
Chris
I grew up playing Hard Driving in the arcades. From what I heard this was designed originally as a driving simulator. Although the graphics were basic by today's standards it had the physics modelled fairly well, combined with a proper steering wheel and clutch / gearbox. I think it did help me to understand the basics of car control like lifting off the brakes when they lock and catching oversteer slides.
Modern games ( GT5 / Forza ) have good physics models and with a decent force-feedback steering wheel I think they can help people to learn what to do in certain situations. I wonder if they also help with the 'panic freeze' moment a lot of people get in accident situations. If you are used to avoiding crashes in a game maybe ( just maybe ) you would actually do something like lift off the brakes and swerve rather than plough head in into an accident.
I would agree the feeling is not the same as a real car and in the games you are sometimes predicting what the car is doing as you cannot feel it.
Having visited the Ring last year I would also say they can help people to learn the lines on a particular circuit. I would never expect to be able to go fast around a circuit without real-world experience though. There are too many things the game will not help you with : bumps, cambers, surface changes and the sheer difference in perspective between the real thing and the game world.
It's a shame they don't teach car control as part of the driving test in the UK. Surely a few hours on a skid pan could help avoid a lot of accidents, instead of relying on ESP systems fitted to new cars!
Modern games ( GT5 / Forza ) have good physics models and with a decent force-feedback steering wheel I think they can help people to learn what to do in certain situations. I wonder if they also help with the 'panic freeze' moment a lot of people get in accident situations. If you are used to avoiding crashes in a game maybe ( just maybe ) you would actually do something like lift off the brakes and swerve rather than plough head in into an accident.
I would agree the feeling is not the same as a real car and in the games you are sometimes predicting what the car is doing as you cannot feel it.
Having visited the Ring last year I would also say they can help people to learn the lines on a particular circuit. I would never expect to be able to go fast around a circuit without real-world experience though. There are too many things the game will not help you with : bumps, cambers, surface changes and the sheer difference in perspective between the real thing and the game world.
It's a shame they don't teach car control as part of the driving test in the UK. Surely a few hours on a skid pan could help avoid a lot of accidents, instead of relying on ESP systems fitted to new cars!
ScoobyChris said:
As home PC's and consoles get more powerful I'm sure in the future we'll be seeing opportunities for much more realistic simulators which do address these issues, but I wonder if they would harm game sales? After all, not everyone will be skilled enough to drive like Ken Block and so they might make it that bit easier to think you can and reinforce the negatives.
Chris
Well already on GT5 you can range from manual gearchanges with absolutely no abs, tc, asm (stability management) etc... all the way to full tabs and tc/asm, assisted braking and assisted steering for the ultimate noob who would simply have to mash the "go" button, so as long as future games have a similarly broad range of driver assistance settings. (I drive with no asm, and only use tc and abs (and even then on minimum strength) on a wet track where its otherwise impossible to drive a tuned power-monster).Chris
IMO, Ken Block isnt skilled... he simply practices forever until he simply knows by rote what to do and when. If something unexpected happened he wouldnt have a clue. For evidence, see his foray into the WRC - on real courses instead of his well-rehearsed planned stages he simply flew off the road all the time as the real pros like Loeb zoomed past flawlessly. That soon cut his over-inflated opinion of his skill down to size
cay said:
I would agree the feeling is not the same as a real car and in the games you are sometimes predicting what the car is doing as you cannot feel it
This is true, although there are some clues in the game that the car is about to, for example, snap back the other way when powersliding - and you soon learn to spot the signs after plonking a brand new Enzo into the wall a few times and spending most of your money re-stiffening the chassiscay said:
Having visited the Ring last year I would also say they can help people to learn the lines on a particular circuit. I would never expect to be able to go fast around a circuit without real-world experience though. There are too many things the game will not help you with : bumps, cambers, surface changes and the sheer difference in perspective between the real thing and the game world.
It's a shame they don't teach car control as part of the driving test in the UK. Surely a few hours on a skid pan could help avoid a lot of accidents, instead of relying on ESP systems fitted to new cars!
Sadly I can only see it getting worse with the new EU ruling making ESP mandatory. Yeah, right - another layer of get-out-of-jail software that only encourages idiots to make their driving even less in accordance with the conditions. We need skidpan training like they get in Finland, that turns them all into brilliant rally drivers.It's a shame they don't teach car control as part of the driving test in the UK. Surely a few hours on a skid pan could help avoid a lot of accidents, instead of relying on ESP systems fitted to new cars!
From playing a whole load of driving games from a fairly young age (think I was 14 when the first Gran Turismo came out) I've learnt a lot about the way cars behave and a few things about manipulating grip and weight of the car and now in real cars I can feel similar things and the first time I felt the back end of a car slide out on me I instinctively steered into it and knew exactly what to do in order to get things back under control.
I don't claim to be a great driver or anything but with the understanding I've picked up from the various (more realistic) games I generally know what's going on with the car underneath me. I only have experience of cars on the road though but I'm hoping to get my first track days under my belt this year to get a decent comparison.
I don't claim to be a great driver or anything but with the understanding I've picked up from the various (more realistic) games I generally know what's going on with the car underneath me. I only have experience of cars on the road though but I'm hoping to get my first track days under my belt this year to get a decent comparison.
http://www.playtruckgames.net/game/276/Truck-Parki...
Not the same as reversing an artic in real life but it can help with the principals
Not the same as reversing an artic in real life but it can help with the principals
I grew up playing every racing game I could get my hands on, Because of this I can powerslide, perform J turns, 180's and 360's at will. Therefore I'm awesome.
Lost count of the pedestrians Ive run over, cars I've clipped and damage I've caused while parking.
But I would have say to yes, video games make you a better driver.
sarcasm may, or may not, be involved in this post.
Lost count of the pedestrians Ive run over, cars I've clipped and damage I've caused while parking.
But I would have say to yes, video games make you a better driver.
sarcasm may, or may not, be involved in this post.
I played Grand Prix Legends (with a wheel and pedals) pretty much solidly from the day it came out (when I was 14) until I went to university.
It's arguable that it helped me understand what to do when things "go wrong" on the road - for example, in an unexpected slide, turning the wheel the right way to catch it was instinctive, and I didn't have to go through the "turn into the slide... which way's into the slide?!" malarkey in my head. I wouldn't really know about improving my skills of driving on the edge, because I don't go there on the public roads. I'd guess that things are a bit different once G forces become involved, and there's no reset button available.
What playing racing simulations DID help me with was an awareness of some of the basic mechanics of driving, and of being wary of other cars on the same road space.
When I learnt to drive properly when I was 17, the method of using the clutch to move off required only a few goes to get the feel of it, and changing gear required no instruction at all - it was an entirely natural reaction to change gear, and even during driving lessons, I would brake and select the correct gear before a corner, and then accelerate gently through the bend - to me, that was obvious at the time.
In addition, surviving a race online meant being aware of traffic. People would cut in on your line round a bend, spin in front of you, brake unexpectedly early. You had to have your wits about you to not rear end anyone on the way into a corner, and leave room for anyone alongside who might cut in on the way round...
Sounds an awful lot like good old fashioned defensive driving to me, and although the mechanics of real road situations are obviously different, the general principle and above all, the attitude required is precisely the same.
It's arguable that it helped me understand what to do when things "go wrong" on the road - for example, in an unexpected slide, turning the wheel the right way to catch it was instinctive, and I didn't have to go through the "turn into the slide... which way's into the slide?!" malarkey in my head. I wouldn't really know about improving my skills of driving on the edge, because I don't go there on the public roads. I'd guess that things are a bit different once G forces become involved, and there's no reset button available.
What playing racing simulations DID help me with was an awareness of some of the basic mechanics of driving, and of being wary of other cars on the same road space.
When I learnt to drive properly when I was 17, the method of using the clutch to move off required only a few goes to get the feel of it, and changing gear required no instruction at all - it was an entirely natural reaction to change gear, and even during driving lessons, I would brake and select the correct gear before a corner, and then accelerate gently through the bend - to me, that was obvious at the time.
In addition, surviving a race online meant being aware of traffic. People would cut in on your line round a bend, spin in front of you, brake unexpectedly early. You had to have your wits about you to not rear end anyone on the way into a corner, and leave room for anyone alongside who might cut in on the way round...
Sounds an awful lot like good old fashioned defensive driving to me, and although the mechanics of real road situations are obviously different, the general principle and above all, the attitude required is precisely the same.
Dr Jekyll said:
Car control in the sense of knowledge of vehicle dynamics has so little to do with safe driving it's almost irrelevant. A good driver is one that doesn't get into the situations where such things as 'lift off RWD oversteer' or whatever are an issue.
I didn't know we were talking exclusively about road driving here? Everything I said up there ^ was all about track driving.Dr Jekyll said:
Car control in the sense of knowledge of vehicle dynamics has so little to do with safe driving it's almost irrelevant. A good driver is one that doesn't get into the situations where such things as 'lift off RWD oversteer' or whatever are an issue.
On the public highway, would be my caveat.Simulation is an interesting thing, in terms of how those using it learn from it and are able to transfer that learning to the real. My view is that the basic problem with simulation is that there is, often, no penalty, such that some might not appreciate what happens in the real despite their simulation experience.
Of course, there are occupations where simulator performance is important for continuance in that occupation.
It's just that I have this nagging feeling that the real can throw up more than the simulator.
Perhaps the OP is just a natural at learning from any source and able to transfer knowledge and experience from the simulated to the real.
This sort of stuff also has relevance as we pass control to computers in so many aspects of our lives, including driving.
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