BGOL (yet another topic about this)

[wst]

I've started noticing my BGOL since starting to read this blooming forum...

So I'm ok at not getting it on country roads, B-roads and so on, I can separate each phase pretty well. I'm struggling though when I get to Milton Keynes though!

Approaching a roundabout, I am braking all the way up to the roundabout until the route is clear (so the car in front has cleared the exit, or if I'm at the front of the traffic, when there's nothing approaching from the right and no obstructions across the exit), and I'm usually also changing down from 5th (which is suitable for the speed of the road between the roundabouts, being DC) at the same time as braking. If I was to finish the braking maneuvre earlier so that I could shift after the braking phase, I'd either be braking a lot harder than I am currently, or I'd be crawling the last 50 yards far slower than the surrounding traffic. If I enter the roundabout in 5th I will either stall (if I have the clutch up) or I will not have any torque available to get-up-and-go once I'm on the roundabout. My gear changes are fairly quick but I can't seem to find the second I need (allows for sticky-lever-not-going-in-properly) outside of the braking and turning/acceleration parts of negotiating the roundabouts.

Oh, and changing into 2nd before braking is obviously a no-no

How do you guys take Milton Keynes?

[robbyd]

Can't comment on Milton Keynes, but personally I would seriously consider the advantages of H&T. With practice you'd be able to drop down seamlessly from 4th to 2nd and be back on the gas when you want and at the right speed, with far less loss of momentum than braking first and then selecting your gear. Win-win situation, and I believe, more in control of the car.

[MC Bodge]

FWIW, try to make use of 'acceleration sense' (use of throttle to control speed) as much as practicable.

To consciously separate braking and shifting I found that I initially needed to re-calibrate my brain and begin braking earlier, before shifting.
-I now use a mix of separation and overlapping during my driving.

No matter what you do (rev matching or otherwise) it is good to shed speed before down-shifting to allow the engine speeds and road speeds to be as close as possible when the clutch is engaged.

Roundabouts and junctions often have poor lines of sight (possibly deliberately) so slowing down a lot, assuming that you will need to stop, is wise anyway.

If you do stop, then the Roadcraft way is to remain in the gear you were in and then change into the gear to re-start after first stopping.

Personally, I would be in first or second in anticipation of not stopping completely and then make a quick getaway if the way is clear.

I suggest not getting too hung-up about 'separation'. As far as I'm concerned, in the overall scheme of driving a car, it is not as important as some people like to believe.

Edit: I've just re-read the OP. Assuming that there is a good site line and no hazards, then why not just treat the roundabout as you would any other hazard or bend?

To separate the braking and shifting, brake earlier, rev match the shift and be in the correct gear for the 'bend'.
To overlap nicely, heel-toe.
A (heretic?) half-way house is to begin braking and begin shifting just before the end of braking, rev-matching at the re-engagement of the clutch.....

Edited by MC Bodge on Wednesday 11th January 12:46

[StressedDave]

wst said:

How do you guys take Milton Keynes?

Like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DitlDt4Kj1w

It's been a while since I did it, so I can't remember if there's BGOL in there or not. They key for me is later, firmer braking to enable you to have time at the end of it to come out of the brakes and make the change - you'll also probably find that you need a little less entry speed than normal to be able to get it done.

[BertBert]

But whatever you do, DO NOT let the anti-BGOL mantra get in the way of safety!

[R0G]

I often anticipate a 2nd gear roundabout being clear so come off the brake during the braking phase at say 20 mph, select 2nd and then apply a little more brake or come to a stop if necessary

[BertBert]

R0G said:

I often anticipate a 2nd gear roundabout being clear so come off the brake during the braking phase at say 20 mph, select 2nd and then apply a little more brake or come to a stop if necessary

Tsk, tsk

[MC Bodge]

R0G said:

I often anticipate a 2nd gear roundabout being clear so come off the brake during the braking phase at say 20 mph, select 2nd and then apply a little more brake or come to a stop if necessary

Surely only a truly full-on Advanced Driving fundamentalist would disagree with this sensible approach?

[Pugsey]

StressedDave said:

wst said:

How do you guys take Milton Keynes?

Like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DitlDt4Kj1w

It's been a while since I did it, so I can't remember if there's BGOL in there or not. They key for me is later, firmer braking to enable you to have time at the end of it to come out of the brakes and make the change - you'll also probably find that you need a little less entry speed than normal to be able to get it done.

Can't decide which is saddest. That someone made that vid - or that I watched it. MY defence is I thought hoped?) something might happen...............I'm off for a stiff drink!

Er, better just edit to add that post meant in fun/good humour only.

Edited by Pugsey on Wednesday 11th January 18:38

[Vaux]

Pugsey said:

Can't decide which is saddest. That someone made that vid - or that I watched it. MY defence is I thought hoped?) something might happen...............I'm off for a stiff drink!

Er, better just edit to add that post meant in fun/good humour only.

I wonder how the conversation went in the Learner car after watching Dave "undertake" them and straight line the roundabout.....

[R0G]

MC Bodge said:

R0G said:

I often anticipate a 2nd gear roundabout being clear so come off the brake during the braking phase at say 20 mph, select 2nd and then apply a little more brake or come to a stop if necessary

Surely only a truly full-on Advanced Driving fundamentalist would disagree with this sensible approach?

Possibly but it goes to show that the system can be adaptive

[wst]

R0G said:

Possibly but it goes to show that the system can be adaptive

It has to be adaptive. It would only not have to be adaptive if everyone on the roads drove to exactly the same style sheet and there were no miscommunications between drivers.

Hence all the debates about BGOL

I'll be going through MK again tomorrow, I'll try to take some of the ideas in this to the roundabouts. Except for Heel & Toe. Much as I'd like to do that, I can't in steel soled workboots

[StressedDave]

It's probably easier in steel soled workboots... I've certainly had no issues doing it in that MX-5 while wearing mine!

[StressedDave]

Pugsey said:

Can't decide which is saddest. That someone made that vid - or that I watched it. MY defence is I thought hoped?) something might happen...............I'm off for a stiff drink!

Er, better just edit to add that post meant in fun/good humour only.

Edited by Pugsey on Wednesday 11th January 18:38

Notwithstanding my need to obtain a life (if anyone has one spare, I'm open to offers ), it was originally purely as a test of the video equipment prior to the addition of the data logging overlay. Here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dGVt8b5v1k is the sort of thing I really use it for - rather than boring trips across the town of endless roundabouts.

[StressedDave]

Vaux said:

I wonder how the conversation went in the Learner car after watching Dave "undertake" them and straight line the roundabout.....

I'm hoping it was a suitable discussion point for the correct application of rule 163 myself.

[adamgillett]

Not sure I agree entirely with this video's demonstration of advanced driving. Whilst I agree straight lining is a recognised technique, on a few approaches the car was positioned in a left filter lane before continuing straight. Perhaps acceptable if nothing behind. Secondly, the passing of the learner with that degree of speed differential could not be seen as acceptable?

What are your thoughts?

[R0G]

adamgillett said:

Not sure I agree entirely with this video's demonstration of advanced driving. Whilst I agree straight lining is a recognised technique, on a few approaches the car was positioned in a left filter lane before continuing straight. Perhaps acceptable if nothing behind. Secondly, the passing of the learner with that degree of speed differential could not be seen as acceptable?

What are your thoughts?

I watched it again and eveything was perfect for advanced driving

advanced driving means using all legal available road space if safe to do so

Learner was well set in its course so I fail to see any issues

If not an advanced driver then it will look 'wrong'

[adamgillett]

The question was to understand not criticise. I was coming from an advanced driver perspective. Looking on other advanced fora there is discussion about the greater responsibility for how the "craft" is portrayed to other road users. Hence I'm following, see straight line safely and think " advanced driver". Learner in lane 2 "undertaken" then driver takes direct line through roundabout gives a different view.

[R0G]

adamgillett said:

The question was to understand not criticise. I was coming from an advanced driver perspective. Looking on other advanced fora there is discussion about the greater responsibility for how the "craft" is portrayed to other road users. Hence I'm following, see straight line safely and think " advanced driver". Learner in lane 2 "undertaken" then driver takes direct line through roundabout gives a different view.

I see

Hopefully the ADI would explain to the learner that those are techniques they could get with apropriate advice after the test and with a little more experience

[Distant]

Learner appeared to be signalling right too, so no problem with the pass on the left. Only comment I have is the use of the left turn lane to go ahead on the roundabout, a couple of times traffic appeared from the 1st exit and may have presumed you were taking the first due to your positioning, this may have made them alter their speed when they realised you were infact going ahead.

As far as BGOL goes, how does the OP feel it affects the safety of his vehicle by overlapping or not?